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Other => FOnline:2238 Forum => Archives => Events => Topic started by: JovankaB on May 29, 2012, 09:51:14 am

Title: Hub RPG - canceled
Post by: JovankaB on May 29, 2012, 09:51:14 am
Project canceled.

This thread is created to comment the Hub RPG system (rules/setting) while it's developed.

This project will not start before the end of summer. I don't know when it will start.

Please wait with new characters, background stories or any activities in game made
specifically for this project. There might be official topic for this, but it won't happen
anytime soon. Because the project is in early conceptual phase, any characters created
now by players specifically for this project could be a wasted effort. Of course if you want
to do anything on your own now and simply join the project when it's ready, then great!

The system will be developed on http://fo2238.fodev.net/wiki/User:JovankaB page.
What I need is general  feedback about possible problems and solutions, ideas etc.

Please remember that we are limited to features that 2238 has to offer in the moment.
Do not propose anything that would require supervision or assistance of 2238 developers.
Do not harass any of the developers about this project. This project is my initiative.
I don't want anyone from staff who didn't offer a help to be harassed in any way.

Adding completely new maps inside Hub, eg sewers is impossible. Scripting and
automation is impossible. AI NPCs with new dialogs are impossible. Project must be
designed to overcome these limits. It must rely on clear rules, writing and cooperation
of players and GMs involved in the project.
Title: Re: Hub RPG - Work in Progress
Post by: JovankaB on May 29, 2012, 01:28:31 pm
Please don't send general questions by PMs so I don't have to answer them 100 times.
Thx.

Quote
so would you like be able too own a store or something or just solely for rp??

In theory you could acquire and do anything with any building in Hub. But buildings in Hub would be
for rp characters running interesting projects, active roleplayers with well written characters etc.
For people who bring some VALUE to the town project. Still, anyone would be able to acquire them.
How would it work:

In the beginning all buildings would belong to characters controlled by GMs. The best rp characters
with their own projects in town could get a chance to have something tiny relatively soon, eg a tent.
It would be extremely unlikely to become owner of bank building for example. Player would have to
pull off something incredibly impressive roleplay-wise and project-wise in Hub to get a slim chance
for such building.

This comes with interesting problem what with NPCs. I wrote on wiki that they are supposed to be
employees of owner but this is bad if building could be closed for example. So perhaps they would be
just renting the building for their business and pay owner a fee like once / week. Player could decide
to send them to hell anytime, then GM would have to find them another place in Hub. But renting
space by the NPCs could come with regular profits so probably player would prefer to keep them.
NPCs could even move to whoever offer the smallest fee :P

Once acquired by a player from character run by GM, the building can be sold to anyone, however:
owners of buildings in Hub would be required to be active citizens in the town that do something
(not just idle in room with multibox). If it would be some taxi alt that does nothing, building would
be marked as abandoned (maybe GM would spawn some homeless people there :P) and soon
taken over by the estate agent or a completely new character run by GM.
Title: Re: Hub RPG - Work in Progress
Post by: jonny rust on May 30, 2012, 04:17:54 am
The realestate sounds great!

I think you had mentioned hub police, possibly being played by GM's?

Would it be a possibility for players who prove themselves to the GM police to be deputized and perhaps help to enforce Hub law? Perhaps if they manage to knock a criminal unconcsious they could 'arrest' him (or have a policeman do it).

If so, what might then make that even better would be to have an organized crime syndicate or a or some sort of underground/black market organization (perhaps in Old town, centered in the building that has the basement level there) where players can also join up having proved themselves.

then there could be cat and mouse games between deputized players and criminal players.

The head of the crime syndicate (a Gm) could give the criminals tasks to steal things or whatever and then the (GM) Chief of police, having his ear to the ground, might have gotten tipped off and so tells his deputies to stay on the look-out in certain areas or to guard certain people etc.

It could even go so far as deputies getting paid off to look the other way :P
Title: Re: Hub RPG - Work in Progress
Post by: JovankaB on May 30, 2012, 07:18:17 am
Quote from: jonny rust on May 30, 2012, 04:17:54 am
The realestate sounds great!

I think you had mentioned hub police, possibly being played by GM's?

GMs and players. The plan is that players will have a chance to be involved
in town projects run by GMs just as well as in projects run by players.

Quote
Perhaps if they manage to knock a criminal unconscious they could 'arrest' him
This is interesting idea that didn't came to my mind. Arresting is tricky but I will think
how it could be used. It is exactly why I prepare this project in open right from beginning.
Thanks.

Quote
If so, what might then make that even better would be to have an organized crime syndicate or a or some sort of underground/black market organization (perhaps in Old town, centered in the building that has the basement level there) where players can also join up having proved themselves.

That's the plan. The underground part is much harder to develop properly though.
I don't really want too much GM control there.

The police/criminals would not be the central part of rp, just one of a few standard town
features that would be everyday bread. But some important rp events may involve these parts.
I want the town to have a kind of main storyline that would be changing the town for real.
The story would be pushed forward when GMs had time to do it, on more or less regular basis.
These things wouldn't be happening all the time but there would be results of these events.
Some results would be more visible and some other less. Some would be known only to some
characters and some other could change town in drastic way.

GMs would try to incorporate players with the most dedicated characters into the events,
at least in some parts of the story. Or even the whole projects run by players. The characters
could influence it, but some things would be hard to stop and would require cooperation
from many players to change how the events go. Some things would be inevitable.
Of course they could always opt-out, in the worst case by leaving the town.

This is very ambitious and bold idea though, the result may be big a huge fail :P

Quote
It could even go so far as deputies getting paid off to look the other way :P

Yes this would be possible. Finally someone is starting to get what I have in mind.
Title: Re: Hub RPG - Work in Progress
Post by: jonny rust on May 30, 2012, 08:06:54 am
Quote from: JovankaB on May 30, 2012, 07:18:17 am
This is very ambitious and bold idea though, the result may be big a huge fail :P

It is ambitious and it may fail but i'm certainly glad that your giving it a chance to succeed!

another idea I just had would be to orchestrate a "zombie attack" (has this happened before?) on the city at some point, this may be a little outlandish but basically it could work like this;

A plague breaks out in Necropolis because of all the rotting flesh that inhabits it. It basically turns all the ghouls ferral and also makes them contagious so they are, for all intensive purposes, ZOMBIES!

In search of fresh meat they migrate in force to the hub from where a breeze has brought them the sent of human flesh!

Now they flood into the streets of the hub in great numbers where the citizens must fend them off, they are slow and have no guns so it seems like an easy task at first but if they hit (bite) you, even just once, you contract the plague and soon become one of them, doomed to walk slowly towards those who were once your friends and make them as you are now!

reminds me of the time I tricked one of my friends to walk into a magic pool which put him under my control (as GM), then I let him play out his character for the rest of the game under the condition that he was to be evil... good times :P

Edit: I realise this one sounds more like an unrelated stand-alone event, but I think it would be a lot more fun if it happens when there are actual hub citizens as opposed to some random event that takes place on Hub island...
Title: Re: Hub RPG - Work in Progress
Post by: JovankaB on May 30, 2012, 09:10:20 am
Quote from: jonny rust on May 30, 2012, 08:06:54 am
Edit: I realise this one sounds more like an unrelated stand-alone event, but I think it would be a lot more fun if it happens when there are actual hub citizens as opposed to some random event that takes place on Hub island...

Yes as long as it will fit in the setting/theme, there might be standalone things, large and small scale,
even as small as made for one specific character. The town is supposed to be detailed environment for this.

But this will depend on availability of GMs and their willing to participate in the project.

Please remember GMs here are pretty much just player support and occasional entertainers.
I would like this to change a bit and I will try to start with myself, but in the end it's not up to me.
There are many reasons for this, also technical that can't be overcome easily.
Title: Re: Hub RPG - Work in Progress
Post by: jonny rust on May 30, 2012, 09:27:27 am
Ok, I feel like I'm spamming you now... but quick question,

How will notice boards work once the RPG kicks in relative to now?

Will characters be able to post thier own notices under any circumstances?
Title: Re: Hub RPG - Work in Progress
Post by: JovankaB on May 30, 2012, 09:42:01 am
Not sure yet, but probably there will be a forum thread representing town's notice board.
Players would be asked to stick to the no-OOC rule in the thread (except time/dates) and only post notices.
Notices could be created in graphical form but it would not be required.

You could still create notices as separate forum threads if you needed feedback etc.
There would no special rules there, except standard forum rules.
Title: Re: Hub RPG - Work in Progress
Post by: Jotisz on May 30, 2012, 10:16:28 am
Just a few things.
First I like the idea it sounds good. Though I think the no ooc at all maybe not the greatest in case  new player appears there and has no idea what to do after all its a place where new characters appear after registration.
The real estate idea sounds nice even without the rent paying NPCs in my opinion, though it sure gives a push to some to keep interest in staying there and keeping the property.
A little idea for the underground/criminal sides, the Hub is part of the New California Republic therefore slavery is outlawed there (yeah we can sell slaves at Shady Sands but thats outside the gates) so I think that slaver characters could get some nasty looks from the law keepers and some town folks (players). I have a few ideas toward this. Like making the selling of slaves prohibited in the governed areas of the Hub.
On the idea of thieving I like what you wrote at the infos. I would add that the player shouldn't accuse the thief for stealing till his character spots him. The turn around and saying something toward the thief sounds good though since although the char doesn't know but can suspect.
On the Cyrillic names well a lot of player speaks Russian only I wouldn't ban them from entering.
Title: Re: Hub RPG - Work in Progress
Post by: Andr3aZ on May 30, 2012, 11:40:00 am
In TSRP they had a map with many houses and buildings. Players could aquire those buildings when forming roleplay-organizations, f.e. police-building was owned by police faction, warehouse was secret hideout for mafia etc. Or you simply had enough money to buy an appartment or house.

Then, only people with keys could open doors of those buildings. Except if they had lockpicks *evil grin*

I'm excited how your real estate system works on FOnline, I see a bit familiarity and I can tell you this system will surely be motivating for roleplayers :) keep it up
Title: Re: Hub RPG - Work in Progress
Post by: LagMaster on May 30, 2012, 11:42:29 am
thi is a great ideea, good thing you became a GM again Jovi

i might participate to this, will try to work for the comunity

still a few questions:
1. about real estates, are the containers locker or everyone can check your stuff?
2. if i work for a house owner can i have my own room?
3. are animals alowded in the house(cows and dogs)?
Title: Re: Hub RPG - Work in Progress
Post by: JovankaB on May 30, 2012, 12:29:49 pm
Quote
1. about real estates, are the containers locker or everyone can check your stuff?
It will be possible to lock any container or door in your property and get a key.
This will be done by a special character controlled by GM, probably the estate agent to keep things simple.
The agent will require a fee, depending on complexity of the lock and your relations with him.
There will be no unpickable locks though, I must test what's the max possible complexity.

Quote
2. if i work for a house owner can i have my own room?
It's a contract between you and the house owner, there will be no town rules for this.
Possibilities are limited by player imagination. It's in your interest to have some proof
that the owner allows you inside but it won't be required. If you are in good relations just
asking the owner to inform police that you are allowed inside should be enough. Remember
criminals can try to trick people into believing that they can enter while owner is away.

It will be possible to get additional keys or change locks if you contact the estate agent,
only on request of the owner of course and for a fee.

Removed doors will be implied contract that anyone can come inside (but must do as owner
says inside). Maybe there will be some additional item or green light at entrance to mark
such places.

Quote
3. are animals alowded in the house(cows and dogs)?
It's up to the owner. It's private property with very few limits and basically anything that
is allowed on a street will be allowed inside (or even more) as long as the owner agrees.
Title: Re: Hub RPG - Work in Progress
Post by: Wieprz on May 30, 2012, 01:33:47 pm
will be there possibility of working for someone? like guard of caravans? standing near shop and keeping the troubles off? i would like this just beacose it brings hell of RP to everyone...imagine an player wich must Drive off Drunkyard who want enter the bank with weapon! cant hit him - since he didnt do so/ cant insult him - since its not well for the bank
Title: Re: Hub RPG - Work in Progress
Post by: Malice Song on May 30, 2012, 05:41:54 pm
Quote from: JovankaB on May 30, 2012, 07:18:17 am
This is very ambitious and bold idea though, the result may be big a huge fail :P

I think the current discussion shows that there is at least some form of demand, enthusiasm and great ideas for this.
If the alternative is doing nothing, the attempt alone to do something like this is already a big success.

Quote from: Jotisz on May 30, 2012, 10:16:28 am
First I like the idea it sounds good. Though I think the no ooc at all maybe not the greatest in case  new player appears there and has no idea what to do after all its a place where new characters appear after registration.
New player can't even get in out of the gate and from what I understand, there are ways to ensure this. So there would still be Junktown around and maybe it is even possible to remove the Hub spawnpoint. I'm sure we can work towards new players getting a somewhat smooth start even without the Hub being available.

Quote
A little idea for the underground/criminal sides, the Hub is part of the New California Republic therefore slavery is outlawed there (yeah we can sell slaves at Shady Sands but thats outside the gates) so I think that slaver characters could get some nasty looks from the law keepers and some town folks (players). I have a few ideas toward this. Like making the selling of slaves prohibited in the governed areas of the Hub.

I like it. Great topic to improvise minor incidents on, too.
I'm not sure how the Hub's stance on those (and NPC followers in general) is, but maybe mutant and ghoul followers could spark similar tension (or probably a bit more than tension in the case of mutants). Could easily see the case of a player fighting (verbally) for the rights of his trusted mutant sidekick in the face of rejection.

Quote from: Wieprz on May 30, 2012, 01:33:47 pm
will be there possibility of working for someone? like guard of caravans? standing near shop and keeping the troubles off? i would like this just beacose it brings hell of RP to everyone...imagine an player wich must Drive off Drunkyard who want enter the bank with weapon! cant hit him - since he didnt do so/ cant insult him - since its not well for the bank
Depending on how picky you are regarding your employer, I can almost guarantee something at least similar is going to be possible, if I understood the premise correctly. I know of at least one roleplay business that I'm somewhat sure is going to jump right into this and I think ideally players would want player interaction here and would want any little project/idea they bring in on their own to grow and contribute. Though the real estate idea is just a rough draft from what I understand, I would not be surprised if we saw players opening up offices for whatever service they want to offer. Depending on the playerbase we'll have at that time, there may even be demand for people who want to keep an eye on a shop as an employe in order to establish longer opening hours and more of a presence in what hopefully could become a mostly player driven economy.

Apart from that I'm a bit short on ideas at the moment. I think a lot of what would and wouldn't make sense will depend on the town story, which player roles will have an impact and to what events player interactions would lead. The place has a ton of potential.
Title: Re: Hub RPG - Work in Progress
Post by: Roachor on May 30, 2012, 05:54:53 pm
I hope ben kain comes back, he'd could set up gorgon office somewhere in hub.
Title: Re: Hub RPG - Work in Progress
Post by: JovankaB on May 30, 2012, 08:21:10 pm
FYI, considering the scope and size of the project, it probably won't start before the end
of the summer. First of all I don't want any pressure, life is stressful enough. Also summer
is the worst moment to start it, because there are other activities when weather is nice :P

Quote
will be there possibility of working for someone? like guard of caravans?
If someone will provide such possibility. I try to design an environment where interesting
projects could emerge, with full awareness about limits of FOnline :P

Quote
I like it. Great topic to improvise minor incidents on, too. I'm not sure how the Hub's stance on those (and NPC followers in general) is, but maybe mutant and ghoul followers could spark similar tension (or probably a bit more than tension in the case of mutants). Could easily see the case of a player fighting (verbally) for the rights of his trusted mutant sidekick in the face of rejection.

I already decided that slaves will be allowed. It's a large trading town so it needs a lot of
workforce to carry boxes :P The NCR is not a unitary state but a federation of towns
so I think they can have different laws about slavery. The laws of Shady Sands didn't even
extend to outskirts where Vortis operated. It's quite possible that powerful caravans that
lived from trade wouldn't let this law to be passed in Hub. The difference between these
towns would also open some interesting possibilities.

In the project I would like to put ghouls in town and they would have equal rights. I don't
know why there is no ghouls in Hub in 2238. Fallout canon ending says "With your assistance,
Old Harold brings the ghoul population of the Hub into equality with the humans. The two
sides work together, and the Hub prospers.". Considering their longevity they might quite
influential citizens. Maybe that's why they aren't visible :P

I don't like idea of Supermutants wandering around there though.
Title: Re: Hub RPG - Work in Progress
Post by: Wieprz on May 30, 2012, 09:01:12 pm
Will be there any possibility to Transfer/Rename already existing characters? i mean i would like to use my Hand to Hand character [no heavy handed] to "possibly" learn others in Unarmed arts or Outdorsman for caps

i really want to see this project alive and kicking i have already nice history for my character
Title: Re: Hub RPG - Work in Progress
Post by: JovankaB on May 30, 2012, 09:32:02 pm
No transfer/rename is possible, if you have a nice enough background story of your character
you would be able to get 10k xp for a start to get to level 5.
Title: Re: Hub RPG - Work in Progress
Post by: Wieprz on May 30, 2012, 09:58:17 pm
Okay then, i think now i need to wait for start and post [in proper topic if possible] char history

Good luck with Project
Title: Re: Hub RPG - Work in Progress
Post by: jonny rust on May 31, 2012, 01:56:06 am
I was thinking about the criminal 'underground' aspect of the RPG and thought; what if there is literally an underground?

What if the Hub gets a sewer system, a place beneath the Hub (but still within the confines of the RPG) devoid of law where criminals can start thier own society with its own cold-blooded set of rules?

It could also be a place that the deputized players could try to raid every so often, of course they would be treading behind enemy lines and wouldn't have the hub police for support!

Alternatively if it makes it easier this could simply exist underneath the water works as it makes sense for there to be some sort of drainage system in at least that part of town...



I would be happy to help with the map construction for this if the idea is adopted (or has in fact already been concieved) unless of course more skilled map makers would be prepared to do it.
Title: Re: Hub RPG - Work in Progress
Post by: JovankaB on May 31, 2012, 06:09:15 am
Quote from: Wieprz on May 30, 2012, 09:58:17 pm
Okay then, i think now i need to wait for start and post [in proper topic if possible] char history

Please wait with new characters, background stories or any activities in game made
specifically for this project. There might be official topic for this, but it won't happen
anytime soon. Because the project is in early conceptual phase, any characters created
now by players specifically for this project could be a wasted effort. Of course if you want
to do anything on your own now and simply join the project when it's ready, then great!

Quote from: jonny rust on May 31, 2012, 01:56:06 am
I was thinking about the criminal 'underground' aspect of the RPG and thought; what if there is literally an underground?

What if the Hub gets a sewer system, a place beneath the Hub (but still within the confines of the RPG) devoid of law where criminals can start thier own society with its own cold-blooded set of rules?

It could also be a place that the deputized players could try to raid every so often, of course they would be treading behind enemy lines and wouldn't have the hub police for support!

Alternatively if it makes it easier this could simply exist underneath the water works as it makes sense for there to be some sort of drainage system in at least that part of town...



I would be happy to help with the map construction for this if the idea is adopted (or has in fact already been concieved) unless of course more skilled map makers would be prepared to do it.

Jonny any new server-side content for this project like new maps or scripts to enhance
the roleplay would require each time developers supervision and assistance. Although
2238 developers are extremely nice people, they are also extremely busy people and
relying on their willingness and their time is very, very unwise. Also I would not like any
of the developers to be harassed about anything in this project unless some of them
offered a help personally and got involved in it. I think that we have something to prove
first, considering how the previous large scale Hub project ended. Both players and GMs.

So please do not propose whole new maps for the project. What is possible is:

[1] Modification of existing maps by using item hack: placing items that look and behave
very similar to static sceneries, floor tiles or walls. Ceilings are impossible to create.
Things like new maps in a location, stairs, ladders etc are impossible. This item hack can
only be done by GMs, it is quite tiresome, manual labor, and creating new maps by players
with the mapper would not help with it.

[2] Creating some additional locations around Hub, but they would have to be made from
existing maps and modified like in [1]. Obviously they can't be too complicated because
of the technical limits. I plan to make Hub Graveyard this way.

[3] Creating new graphics for the sceneries made like in [1], but it would require players
to download the Hub RPG graphics pack or all they would see in place of the new graphics
would be red rectangles with question marks.
Title: Re: Hub RPG - Work in Progress
Post by: Horatio on May 31, 2012, 12:45:09 pm
What kind of new graphics will it be and who will be in charge making them, JovankaB?
Title: Re: Hub RPG - Work in Progress
Post by: JovankaB on May 31, 2012, 12:52:12 pm
It could be town scenery objects. But I don't know if there will be any new graphics in the Hub.
It's a lot of work and it won't be added just for the sake of Hub looking different, there would
have to be a good gameplay or town theme / story reason for this. IF it would be really needed,
then we can worry to find someone to make it.
Title: Re: Hub RPG - Work in Progress
Post by: Wieprz on May 31, 2012, 10:02:57 pm
Will the amount of Houses for "special" characters be Limited? or ecery char will be able to have one?

Also there will be special places to wander off? like unique caves to find someone or something like that?
Title: Re: Hub RPG - Work in Progress
Post by: JovankaB on May 31, 2012, 11:51:25 pm
Quote from: Wieprz on May 31, 2012, 10:02:57 pm
Will the amount of Houses for "special" characters be Limited? or ecery char will be able to have one?

Also there will be special places to wander off? like unique caves to find someone or something like that?

There will be practically no limits in real estate, a single person could even own all buildings in theory.
But it's hard to imagine such situation. Town will start with all buildings in hands of chars controlled
by GMs (I call them GMNPC). They won't be interested in selling them probably, so you can't just
grind caps and hope to buy something from a GMNPC. If a building will be acquirable, then there will
be specified conditions for this. It may be solving some town mystery for example. Only GMs will know.
Obviously it will require to be present in town often (or a bit of luck), because GMNPC are just normal
chars and won't be available all the time. People running some interesting projects may also have
easier way to acquire some but it won't be guaranteed.

There will be some locations outside Hub that will be part of the project. I didn't think much about it
yet except for the Hub Graveyard with graves of characters that died (forever) in the project
(GMNPCs would die in some cases, players controlling a character also could decide about its death).
Adding a gravestone with description is little work for GMs and it's a nice detail IMHO :P
Title: Re: Hub RPG - Work in Progress
Post by: MRtrader on June 01, 2012, 08:52:02 am
Quote from: Roachor on May 30, 2012, 05:54:53 pm
I hope ben kain comes back, he'd could set up gorgon office somewhere in hub.
yeah where is he anyway?
Title: Re: Hub RPG - Work in Progress
Post by: Who Killed Bambi on June 02, 2012, 09:30:26 pm
i suggest to add fixed outfit (skin) for hub citizens
like :



(http://fo2238.fodev.net/wiki/images/9/92/Nmpeasaa_sw.gif)

for male



and



(http://fo2238.fodev.net/wiki/images/a/a4/Nfpeasaa_sw.gif)


for female



or other various skins

maybe add npc at supply store, which gonna *outfit* male/female 6+ lvl to that *skin*

points is:
bluesuit is not great
citizens in small town know each other - skin there is solution
if all players gonna use lj/clj/ma - no easy way to identity citizen / raider or worst / visitor
Title: Re: Hub RPG - Work in Progress
Post by: Tomowolf on June 02, 2012, 10:22:55 pm
Well raiders can have tatoos, which would identify them as Khan/Slaver/anything.
Title: Re: Hub RPG - Work in Progress
Post by: JovankaB on June 03, 2012, 03:18:30 am
Quote
maybe add npc at supply store, which gonna *outfit* male/female 6+ lvl to that *skin*
It is impossible because of several reasons, the most important one is in the first post.
The project will be based on interaction between characters not on NPC dialogs / scripts.
Which of course mean it will move forward only when players and/or GMs will be around.
I hope I won't be the only person trying to make the place interesting.

Quote
points is:
bluesuit is not great
citizens in small town know each other - skin there is solution
if all players gonna use lj/clj/ma - no easy way to identity citizen / raider or worst / visitor
Probably the convention will be that bluesuits are any kind of underwear. You will have to
help yourself with imagination. Walking in it on street or in a building etc should cause
a reaction proper to the situation - who wears it, where, why and who else is around.
On a street it would be considered inappropriate.

The only exception would be if a character actually WEARS a vault suit item, then it would be
treated like an actual suit from some vault. Such characters would need to have a good,
interesting, logical rp story, then they could receive one such suit when the project starts.
But if they lose it, they can't pretend they still have it. They will have to get some normal clothes.
Title: Re: Hub RPG - Work in Progress
Post by: codave on June 03, 2012, 10:42:14 pm
Quote from: MRtrader on June 01, 2012, 08:52:02 am
yeah where is he anyway?

Last I talked to Ben, he was having some internet connection problems that were preventing him from playing.  Some of the guys on his team might be able to tell you more.

I do believe this is the type of thing he would jump in with both feet, as well.  I hope by the time this gets implemented he's back around.
Title: Re: Hub RPG - Work in Progress
Post by: headshot on June 06, 2012, 07:14:01 pm
Yep. That's what she said. Imagination is the way. Don't expect much from graphics made or based on this what has been done before 1997. "Give me a skin and I will show ya that I can do the role-play" is not good solution too. Just think about some roles, stop using "omg" "wtf" "lol" and turn on the imagination and feel the fallout spirit. If this is possible, I'd like to participate in this, however I'm afraid that this project won't last long if all of the participants would be action men. From same reason the Wasteland Wildlife Protectors turned itself from a RP-Project to the some kind of military faction which was not a goal.
Title: Re: Hub RPG - Work in Progress
Post by: JovankaB on June 06, 2012, 08:47:37 pm
I want the Hub to have some conflicts in the town but it won't be based on any big scale military
similar to what you see on northern towns, at least not on everyday basis. The most obvious
conflict will be police vs underground - anyone can try to break into properties of the citizens
but it won't be as easy because of real possibility of getting jailed. There will be a lot of places
to break in, buildings in hands of GMs will have some items spawned. People in the underground
would also get jobs from "crime boss" - unknown town figure controlled by the GM. The jobs
could be to assassinate someone, steal some object, guard some illegal trade etc. (but victims
would be chars controlled by GM, unless some player wanted to play such role). Of course people
in police would have opposite objectives besides normal duties like protecting citizens.
Protection from NPCs would be removed to absolute minimum. NPC guards will probably be replaced
with armed citizen NPCs and opportunity to get Hub citizenship for lawful people who visit the town
often, run some project in town etc.

The Hub RPG will probably (if devs will agree to put the necessary script on server) take place in
a copy of the town spawned on top of the original one. If you enter the copy you will get automatically
teleported to the original (non-rp) town, unless you opted-in. To opt-in you will have to talk to an NPC
in the non-rp Hub. You will be able to opt-out from the project anytime by talking to similar NPC
in the rp Hub. To opt-in you would need at least level 5.
Title: Re: Hub RPG - Work in Progress
Post by: MRtrader on June 06, 2012, 10:33:02 pm
Quote from: JovankaB on June 06, 2012, 08:47:37 pm
I want the Hub to have some conflicts in the town but it won't be based on any big scale military
similar to what you see on northern towns, at least not on everyday basis. The most obvious
conflict will be police vs underground - anyone can try to break into properties of the citizens
but it won't be as easy because of real possibility of getting jailed. There will be a lot of places
to break in, buildings in hands of GMs will have some items spawned. People in the underground
would also get jobs from "crime boss" - unknown town figure controlled by the GM. The jobs
could be to assassinate someone, steal some object, guard some illegal trade etc. (but victims
would be chars controlled by GM, unless some player wanted to play such role). Of course people
in police would have opposite objectives besides normal duties like protecting citizens.
Protection from NPCs would be removed to absolute minimum. NPC guards will probably be replaced
with armed citizen NPCs and opportunity to get Hub citizenship for lawful people who visit the town
often, run some project in town etc.

The Hub RPG will probably (if devs will agree to put the necessary script on server) take place in
a copy of the town spawned on top of the original one. If you enter the copy you will get automatically
teleported to the original (non-rp) town, unless you opted-in. To opt-in you will have to talk to an NPC
in the non-rp Hub. You will be able to opt-out from the project anytime by talking to similar NPC
in the rp Hub. To opt-in you would need at least level 5.

uhm hope you dont mind me saying; better be carfull that your idea doesn't get out of hand in the dev department...well if you can arrange it im all for. but the devs seem so inactieve recently or maybe thats wrong?
Title: Re: Hub RPG - Work in Progress
Post by: JovankaB on June 06, 2012, 11:14:15 pm
Quote from: MRtrader on June 06, 2012, 10:33:02 pm
uhm hope you dont mind me saying; better be carfull that your idea doesn't get out of hand in the dev department...well if you can arrange it im all for. but the devs seem so inactieve recently or maybe thats wrong?

It's not like devs aren't available at all, although for players it may seem a bit like that.
The script and dialogs for letting people in wouldn't require much of their attention,
I can make it all by myself and I still have plenty of time to test it with SDK and harass
them to put it on 2238 :P Without blocking 1-4 level chars it would be constant trollfest.
Idea with double Hub and opting-in is probably the best, so I hope devs would agree.
But it's not important in the moment, because project is still in relatively early concept.
Title: Re: Hub RPG - Work in Progress
Post by: falloutdude on June 06, 2012, 11:51:39 pm
hmmm it seems good i would of course want more pvp in this but meh not my choice. anyway if this really happens ( seems like its 50/50 chance that this project really happens) i will join the underground and do evil killings and be jailed every day  ;D.
Title: Re: Hub RPG - Work in Progress
Post by: MRtrader on June 07, 2012, 10:37:00 am
Quote from: JovankaB on June 06, 2012, 11:14:15 pm
It's not like devs aren't available at all, although for players it may seem a bit like that.
The script and dialogs for letting people in wouldn't require much of their attention,
I can make it all by myself and I still have plenty of time to test it with SDK and harass
them to put it on 2238 :P Without blocking 1-4 level chars it would be constant trollfest.
Idea with double Hub and opting-in is probably the best, so I hope devs would agree.
But it's not important in the moment, because project is still in relatively early concept.
great to hear it's not to much work so it got a real good chance of actually gettinf implemented
Title: Re: Hub RPG - Work in Progress
Post by: steve s. on June 16, 2012, 11:20:53 am
Quote from: JovankaB on May 30, 2012, 08:21:10 pm
In the project I would like to put ghouls in town and they would have equal rights. I don't
know why there is no ghouls in Hub in 2238. Fallout canon ending says "With your assistance,
Old Harold brings the ghoul population of the Hub into equality with the humans. The two
sides work together, and the Hub prospers.". Considering their longevity they might quite
influential citizens. Maybe that's why they aren't visible :P

I don't like idea of Supermutants wandering around there though.
I think that you could go somewhere with this. some people just won't be happy about the fact that mutants have rights. how about there be political partys that we can join, each with their own values and positions on certain matters, mutant rights being just one topic. I have roleplayed as a gentleman ghoul character before and I found that there were a good many people who would discriminate against me just because of my appearance. maybe we could register as members of these different political partys and all the citizens of the hub could vote on certain things, like super mutants being alowed into town, and shop owners being aloud to discriminate against mutants, maybe whether or not to legalize certain items like some drugs? what we can vote on would be ultimately be decided by the hub's central council (the GMs).

 This could work alongside the police vs criminal aspect because when something is illegal it creates a demand for smugglers. these smugglers could have to hide contraband in certain places to get it to certain people. people who find a stash could report it to the deputies, blackmail someone for an item or a job if they figure out who the smuggler is or who it was being delivered too, or take it for themselves accepting the risks of being caught. If they guess and try to blackmail the wrong person they just alerted them that they have contraband and the wrongly accused could turn them in. deputies could use the steal ability to search suspicious peoples inventory for contraband. unfortunately something may need to be changed so deputies could use the steal option and not become unprotected. you could always just use that as a reason for deputies not searching every random person. smuggling could also add another dimension to the dirty cop idea where the deputy could keep the contraband for himself rather than turning it in to the police chief. getting caught as a dirty cop could get you fired and arrested for possession. a choice has a consequence, but you always have a choice.

also as a ghoul who is often kicked around and has been around for a long time, your words give me hope of being an influential figure. : ) I am looking forward to this.
Title: Re: Hub RPG - Work in Progress
Post by: BenKain on June 18, 2012, 01:01:32 am
I wanted to say, while I have quit for the time being, I'll be back in force when (or if) this is implemented. I would absolutely love to see a Gorgon Enterprises office facility in the Hub, and will defiantly work towards it by any means.   

It is kinda weird to see people asking after me though *_*
Title: Re: Hub RPG - Work in Progress
Post by: JovankaB on June 18, 2012, 05:25:56 am
Quote from: BenKain on June 18, 2012, 01:01:32 am
I wanted to say, while I have quit for the time being, I'll be back in force when (or if) this is implemented.

Good to know Ben!  :)
Title: Re: Hub RPG - Work in Progress
Post by: Who Killed Bambi on June 18, 2012, 11:44:14 am
i suggest to add for that second hub own money value - money like in fo2, which can be obtained in flc for bottle caps or gold nugget

 :D :)
Title: Re: Hub RPG - Work in Progress
Post by: JovankaB on June 18, 2012, 11:47:21 am
Quote from: Who Killed Bambi on June 18, 2012, 11:44:14 am
i suggest to add for that second hub own money value - money like in fo2, which can be obtained in flc for bottle caps or gold nugget

 :D :)

This is actually pretty good idea. Gold could be used to buy properties or pay for other project features.
But obtaining for caps sounds a bit counter-productive, because it endangers the project with grinding.
I would prefer if it could be earned in GM-driven events/tasks/quests.
Title: Re: Hub RPG - Work in Progress
Post by: Who Killed Bambi on June 18, 2012, 11:56:59 am
Maybe then *price-less* papers from redding mines, customized to water merchants paper. which can be used by citizens to change situation in hub
(for example gm have 51% of water merchants paper, and rest of hub citizens 49% and main goal for that citizens is participating in politics of hub water trading and other things)
Title: Re: Hub RPG - Work in Progress
Post by: JovankaB on June 18, 2012, 12:24:46 pm
Nice idea but I'm not sure if not too ambitious... it's basically a stock exchange :o

Another thing is that I don't really like the idea of Hub in 2238 having one source of water.
After Fallout 1 the water merchants weren't mentioned, which suggests something opposite.

It's a nice material for interesting conflict but it's 80 years after Fallout 1 events.
It would be strange if they still had a monopoly on a resource that is in many ways renewable.
The drought from F2 didn't come yet either. Last but not least, in 2238 water pipes are everywhere :P
Title: Re: Hub RPG - Work in Progress
Post by: Mike Crosser on June 18, 2012, 01:51:55 pm
its 2245 the drought of F2 has been long gone,I think..
Title: Re: Hub RPG - Work in Progress
Post by: JovankaB on June 18, 2012, 03:05:09 pm
Quote from: Mike Crosser on June 18, 2012, 01:51:55 pm
its 2245 the drought of F2 has been long gone,I think..

It's always year 2238 in FOnline 2238. Your Pipboy is wrong (all of them, actually :P).
Title: Re: Hub RPG - Work in Progress
Post by: Mike Crosser on June 18, 2012, 06:19:05 pm
Quote from: JovankaB on June 18, 2012, 03:05:09 pm
It's always year 2238 in FOnline 2238. Your Pipboy is wrong (all of them, actually :P).
-_-
Title: Re: Hub RPG - Work in Progress
Post by: Redivivus on June 22, 2012, 09:44:10 pm
Quote from: JovankaB on June 18, 2012, 03:05:09 pm
It's always year 2238 in FOnline 2238. Your Pipboy is wrong (all of them, actually :P).
Not for now. :b
Ever since you are getting old with each +year of your pip boy.
Title: Re: Hub RPG - Work in Progress
Post by: MRtrader on June 23, 2012, 07:37:46 am
hmm can you die of age in this game?
Title: Re: Hub RPG - Work in Progress
Post by: JovankaB on June 23, 2012, 08:17:17 am
Quote from: MRtrader on June 23, 2012, 07:37:46 am
hmm can you die of age in this game?

Nope, it's not possible and neither will be in this project.
The year will be ignored because time passes too fast and things will be handled manually by GMs
involved in the project when they will have time, so it will have relatively slow pace in real time.

Time scale can't be changed because it's a global setting and 2238 in general must stay unchanged.
The project can't interfere with devs work.
Title: Re: Hub RPG - Work in Progress
Post by: Grimmi on June 23, 2012, 02:44:52 pm
So everyone are undead
Title: Re: Hub RPG - Work in Progress
Post by: Wiktor_pl on June 24, 2012, 02:04:19 pm
I'm totally in that project! I just hope it will eventually start before october, cause hard work on university begins then. I wish you bad wheather so you can focus on it, Jovanka! :D
Title: Re: Hub RPG - Work in Progress
Post by: racoon on June 25, 2012, 10:59:21 am
i wonder IF it start at all, i hope yes
Title: Re: Hub RPG - Work in Progress
Post by: PolarBear315 on June 25, 2012, 10:32:07 pm
Spicific areas devoted to RP sounds cool.
Title: Re: Hub RPG - Work in Progress
Post by: Who Killed Bambi on June 28, 2012, 09:03:10 pm
add hard daily job for hub citizens (guarding, shoveling, shooting incoming raiders, etc)
Title: Re: Hub RPG - Work in Progress
Post by: Mike Crosser on June 30, 2012, 10:08:28 am
Will the players be able to become Police officers?
Title: Re: Hub RPG - Work in Progress
Post by: JovankaB on June 30, 2012, 01:11:59 pm
Quote from: Mike Crosser on June 30, 2012, 10:08:28 am
Will the players be able to become Police officers?

It will be possibile to work in police, yes. Specific requirements and promotion path (if there will be any) aren't created yet. I have some rough ideas like having 24 level requirement to join police, which should discourage people from doing some malicious tricks after becoming police officer. Also all police officers would get Hub citizenship, probably there won't be standard NPC guards only some extra police NPCs that protect Hub citizens only (a bit similar to militia).
Title: Re: Hub RPG - Work in Progress
Post by: Mike Crosser on June 30, 2012, 01:22:51 pm
Can it be a level 20 requirment?
Title: Re: Hub RPG - Work in Progress
Post by: JovankaB on June 30, 2012, 01:30:58 pm
Quote from: Mike Crosser on June 30, 2012, 01:22:51 pm
Can it be a level 20 requirment?

I want screwing something as police member to come with as painful risk as possible so I would rather require max level.
But the project doesn't start tomorrow and such details can be decided later.
Title: Re: Hub RPG - Work in Progress
Post by: TKs-KaBoom on June 30, 2012, 02:21:17 pm
I have a level 24 char!  I can be Police Chief, woo hoooo!  Tremble before me mortals!  Can you say "Corruption"!  Favors for sale!  Drug trafficing available!  Murder for hire, I'll put the cops on a different beat, don't worry, no looky looos.


KaBoom for Sherif 2238!
Title: Re: Hub RPG - Work in Progress
Post by: JovankaB on June 30, 2012, 02:37:18 pm
Sorry to disappoint you but police chief will always stay under control of GMs involved in the project.
It would be too risky to give such role to a player in a project that is open for everyone and I don't
want to divide players into "trustworthy" and "not trustworthy" because it will always make someone
unhappy. Besides it's one of the characters that will need some special powers that only GMs have
(like placing caught criminal in jail).
Title: Re: Hub RPG - Work in Progress
Post by: Pandaeb on June 30, 2012, 02:46:06 pm
Um... Can I ask why wont you start this project earlier? You know... summer is usually time when many players got whole days for playing. After summer there usually is much less time for games. And if you want to engage many people to Hub Project, they should spend there as much time as possible.
Just simple conclusion, that after summer there wont be as much players as during summer.
Title: Re: Hub RPG - Work in Progress
Post by: JovankaB on June 30, 2012, 06:02:43 pm
Quote from: Pandaeb on June 30, 2012, 02:46:06 pm
Can I ask why wont you start this project earlier?

Because I don't have enough to time to prepare all details for summer and I'm not willing to work under any time pressure. There is no deadline set and it will start when it will be ready. After it will start GMs involved will do things for this project when they will have time, so don't expect that GM-based events will be going there all the time. Most activity will be probably on evenings, European time.
Title: Re: Hub RPG - Work in Progress
Post by: Pandaeb on June 30, 2012, 08:40:32 pm
So as long as there wont be any GM online (or willing to play RP), Hub will be closed? Or what? It will be non-rp for this time? I don't get it.
Title: Re: Hub RPG - Work in Progress
Post by: JovankaB on June 30, 2012, 08:59:10 pm
Quote from: Pandaeb on June 30, 2012, 08:40:32 pm
So as long as there wont be any GM online (or willing to play RP), Hub will be closed? Or what? It will be non-rp for this time? I don't get it.

No it will be opened and rp all the time of course but any feature that will requite GM presence will be available when GMs involved in the project will be around. Also some GM-run events etc. What I mean, any GM-driven things can have a long time span and happen on several days in a week etc. I expect players to make the town interesting on their own too.
Title: Re: Hub RPG - Work in Progress
Post by: Pandaeb on July 01, 2012, 12:47:07 am
As long as there will be regular players in town, non roleplayers, there won't be RP, until GM presence.
I understand that you aren't a robot that can or want to handle this 24/7 but this way you should wrote just can't do that. If a GM occurs there for 2-3 days in week for few hours daily, it's fine - but for rest of the time there will be big pile of shit created by non-roleplayers. Sad but true.
And unfortunately, I don't see any solution to that else than at least one GM online 24/7. But maybe you see other way; tell me then, I am really curious.
Title: Re: Hub RPG - Work in Progress
Post by: JovankaB on July 01, 2012, 01:15:35 am
My current plan is that there will be 2 Hub - rp and non-rp although you won't really notice that except brighter town on world map. Please read what I wrote before (2nd paragraph):

http://fodev.net/forum/index.php/topic,24151.msg202656.html#msg202656
Title: Re: Hub RPG - Work in Progress
Post by: John.Metzger on July 01, 2012, 05:01:44 am
realy looking forward to this..
as i was starting the game few years ago there was this hub roleplay project,
i remember a guy named brother witt, roleplaying a priest or something
he helped me a lot with his knowledge and took a full hour to show me all this beginner stuff..
everything about mining, brahminhides, tents and such things. just lovely roleplaying a helpfull priest.
since this day i haven´t left 2238. also a good so called "PR" for 2238 at all.
even if this isn't "open for everyone"... a pity that we need a 2th hub, to do organised undisturbed roleplay, isn't it?
end of summer is exactly the right time to pick up all those ragequiting dudes.
thanks for your persistent efforts for roleplaying, jovanka.
Title: Re: Hub RPG - Work in Progress
Post by: Mike Crosser on July 01, 2012, 09:49:37 am
Maybe add an ability to purchase shops and in return get some cash or items every scpecific day of the week.
Title: Re: Hub RPG - Work in Progress
Post by: JovankaB on July 01, 2012, 10:18:21 am
Quote from: Mike Crosser on July 01, 2012, 09:49:37 am
Maybe add an ability to purchase shops and in return get some cash or items every scpecific day of the week.

NPC will be assumed to just rent space for business from the property owner. So you will be able to own building but not the NPC functioning in them (you could kick them out though). I'm not sure if rent will be actually paid. Handling this by GM might be too much work, although there could be some ways to automate the process, eg just spawn gold coins in containers or even floor in all buildings once in a week and let owners worry to pick them up before some thief will do it.
Title: Re: Hub RPG - Work in Progress
Post by: Pandaeb on July 01, 2012, 11:45:04 am
Quote from: JovankaB on July 01, 2012, 01:15:35 am
My current plan is that there will be 2 Hub - rp and non-rp although you won't really notice that except brighter town on world map. Please read what I wrote before (2nd paragraph):

http://fodev.net/forum/index.php/topic,24151.msg202656.html#msg202656

Well, still I got some doubts - will this Hub RP be avaible to enter if no GM is online? If yes, and if there really won't be any NPC guards in town it'll be totally ruined in two, three days. At least I see it that way.
Title: Re: Hub RPG - Work in Progress
Post by: JovankaB on July 01, 2012, 11:58:33 am
Quote from: Pandaeb on July 01, 2012, 11:45:04 am
Well, still I got some doubts - will this Hub RP be avaible to enter if no GM is online? If yes, and if there really won't be any NPC guards in town it'll be totally ruined in two, three days. At least I see it that way.

You will be able to enter but there will be minimum level requirement to opt-in. It won't be possible to enter with 1 level character and attempts of trolling will be punished. I'm optimistic so I guess we will have to just wait and see who was right :)
Title: Re: Hub RPG - Work in Progress
Post by: Pandaeb on July 01, 2012, 12:29:22 pm
I'd rather tell that most of the trolls got few fighting characters lvl 24 with full gear and I guess nothing will stop them if there wont be guards in town. Doesn't matter if that would be CS or TTTLA or another fighting team. I just guess that Hub RP will become another town to control without actual tc system.
I am not happy of that, coz I reckon this RP idea as brilliant but I just warn you to create another security for time when GM is offline. Or at least don't let anyone come with superior gear or even with any gear.
Title: Re: Hub RPG - Work in Progress
Post by: JovankaB on July 01, 2012, 12:49:54 pm
Quote from: Pandaeb on July 01, 2012, 12:29:22 pm
I'd rather tell that most of the trolls got few fighting characters lvl 24 with full gear and I guess nothing will stop them

Common sense will. Any lawless action in RP Hub will be under a real risk of consequences. If you murder someone your character risks ending in jail for a significant amount of time. There will be clear rules about it, so it will be still possible to break law, just much harder and not in the open. If you do something non-rp and out-of-context or break other project rules, it will be a permaban straight away.
Title: Re: Hub RPG - Work in Progress
Post by: Pandaeb on July 01, 2012, 12:56:34 pm
Well then, if it's permaban I am fully satisfied :) And I am really looking forward to start.
Title: Re: Hub RPG - Work in Progress
Post by: LagMaster on July 01, 2012, 10:15:33 pm
how about a small camp near Hub for slavers, you can get slaver tatoo there, no more need to travel to Den
Title: Re: Hub RPG - Work in Progress
Post by: JovankaB on July 02, 2012, 05:52:18 am
Quote from: LagMaster on July 01, 2012, 10:15:33 pm
how about a small camp near Hub for slavers, you can get slaver tatoo there, no more need to travel to Den

A hidden slaver camp location yes, if it will make some rp sense. Getting tattoo easier or some other
standard 2238 features like professions etc for "no more need to travel" - absolutely no.
Also no selling slaves to an NPC, caps grinding features etc. The project can't hijack the game
and is not supposed to be a loophole to get things easier.
Title: Re: Hub RPG - Work in Progress
Post by: Jotisz on July 02, 2012, 11:20:37 am
Agree with that. A slaver camp (I think an outpost or a scrapheap could be an ok place for that especially if the brahmin pen can be turned into a fance) there could be used as a place that part of the underground/criminal society. Talking about criminals and underground society Hub old town has that underground level where in fallout 1 we could meet the Thieves' Circle that place could be made up as a hideout for some small time thieves and robbers. Maybe one of the houses from the Heights district could be made as a home for some criminal figure and his underlings (after all criminal activity could get some rich if they won't get busted).
Title: Re: Hub RPG - Work in Progress
Post by: Mike Crosser on July 02, 2012, 11:53:55 am
Well I actually talked to JovankaB to add a town near hub called scrapheap(like the one in the fallout demo) to serve as a stoping point for caravans and such.I also talked about adding something similar to the gas station camp base near the hub aswell perhaps we can use this as the slaver camp.
Title: Re: Hub RPG - Work in Progress
Post by: Haraldx on July 02, 2012, 10:49:08 pm
Sounds interesting. As much as the RP project is related to Hub, is there a possibility we include a bit of stuff from JunkTown? We all know, Hub doesn't have it's own mining site, so somebody can be a caravan driver like thingy and provide minerals and ores to the weapons dealer for example.
Title: Re: Hub RPG - Work in Progress
Post by: LagMaster on July 03, 2012, 01:28:37 am
Quote from: Haraldx on July 02, 2012, 10:49:08 pm
Sounds interesting. As much as the RP project is related to Hub, is there a possibility we include a bit of stuff from JunkTown? We all know, Hub doesn't have it's own mining site, so somebody can be a caravan driver like thingy and provide minerals and ores to the weapons dealer for example.
what about TWACO? by johnny rust
Title: Re: Hub RPG - Work in Progress
Post by: Mike Crosser on July 03, 2012, 12:00:02 pm
TWACO is good project IMO but there should be more plazer driven caravan companies.
Title: Re: Hub RPG - Work in Progress
Post by: Redbull on July 05, 2012, 03:39:29 pm
I cannot wait.
Title: Re: Hub RPG - Work in Progress
Post by: JovankaB on July 07, 2012, 10:06:08 am
Situation changed a bit, as you can see. The whole thing was planned around "do it with
just what GMs can do, nothing else", without any expectation of help from any developer.

Now I have to rethink it again, because some of the limitations are gone or reduced for me,
but also because I have less time to sit in the game myself. I will put the project on hold
until I figure out what can be done in the current circumstances :P At this moment I don't
know anymore how Hub RPG will look.

I will lock the thread for now so the message stays clear.
If you want to talk about the project - catch me on #2238help (http://chat.forestnet.org/?channels=2238help).
Title: Re: Hub RPG - canceled
Post by: JovankaB on July 31, 2012, 06:39:52 am
Time to face reality. I cancel the project. Maybe some GM will pick up the idea some day,
or try something else... It was a long shot from start, but without me sitting in game as GM
and doing it, it's simply impossible, not at the scale I planned. And it's not going to happen.