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FOnline Development => 3D Development => Topic started by: Luther Blissett on October 04, 2011, 08:50:51 pm
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There's a few bits of "3D is shit" type off-topic discussions spread around the forum. Thought it might be useful to put a thread in here for such discussions.
I know some people will just never like the 3D work, and that's fine - I'm not expecting this to turn into a magical thread where people change their minds, but if anyone just dislikes it for a few smaller reasons, maybe that's fixable. If anyone's got genuine constructive criticism about the work being done here, it would be useful to hear it.
If we spend hours adjusting and rigging a model to put in game, and it turns out it wasn't good enough in the first place, it would have been a lot more useful to know that it wasn't good enough hours earlier. Same with other areas - are there too many / not enough new models? How close are the models to the existing sprites, and how could they be made better? What about the animations, the lighting, the textures? Are some of the models too good, to the extent that they look out of place in the game?
Please don't turn this into a trolling thread, but if there are people who dislike the 3D work for a specific reason, maybe we can improve or change things to make them better. I'm pretty sure most people want this to be as good as possible, and when you've worked on something for a long time, it's sometimes hard to spot the flaws in your own work any more.
Again, please don't troll or insult forum members' work. People have worked hard on these, and most are still learning as they go (especially me), but if there's something you really feel needs improvement, it's better to know sooner rather than later.
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Some people don't like 3D, because it doesn't look like 2D, in original fallout, even if you'll make less smooth animation, make it more "pixeled", etc. still it'll be 3D, and 3D isn't 2D. It'll be something new, those people who never played fallout before and, don't really know why, are playing FOnline playing it for thier reasons, they won't care about 3D, and those who played before and now playing FOnline for the same reason as 1st mentioned people, won't care about 3D too as they're playing FOnline without caring about fallout. If people are playing FOnline because they want to play fallout and fallout isn't more interesting for them much, they will care and won't like 3D.
Other people are saying that it's not fallout anymore, as it's not rpg, you can't play your role in some storyline, you can't be thief, lockpicker, tribal or hunter, if you'll "try" to roleplay, it'll look ridiculous here in FOnline. Roleplay possible when you're, usually friends, co-operative completing usually single-player campaign in some rpg game where each of you playing some role in "party" and doing thier actions based on thier aligment/class/whatever or whoever you RPing, choosing thier dialogue options and doing needed actions through whole game. It makes you feel as how you would do actions in that world if you were that character. In arcanum co-op mod you can roleplay dwarf who likes to drink, elf who doesn't like dwarves and technology, or a thief robbing stores at night who will have problems after and other players (as they are one party) will have to do something with it (usually it ends with slaughter whole town, but oh well...). I can't imagine roleplaying in mmo where all actions are player based, if you're RPing in place where are only players, you, probably, doing something wrong, as it's easier to live in real life and talk with people there. So those people (who are saying it's not fallout anymore) don't care if it'll lose something from original fallout as it's not original fallout long time ago and they're playing it as other game.
This way 3D will be disliked by people who wanted to play fallout but with other people, not alone in singleplayer with the same story over and over that they know. And there's nothing can be done, if only 3D will look very very very very very similar to 2D without adding other things, but then... why do need to make it 3D if it'll be look like before without changes? Those people don't need long hair dudes or bald dudes or running supermuties or pinksuits or brown CAs, character description on binoculars will be enough and ability to play some role in game and good old 2D sprites from fallout.
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even if you'll make less smooth animation, make it more "pixeled", etc. still it'll be 3D, and 3D isn't 2D.
Did you ever played Commandos 2? Unlike Commandos 1, which was 100% 2D graphics, Commandos 2 uses pre-rendered backgrounds and 3D animated figures. But: Due to it's render technic, it looks nearly 1:1 like the original 2D graphics, which was pretty cool.
So... it is not impossible to achieve a result that is very close to the original. You won't fit it 1:1, that's just impossible. But the advantages are still bigger than any disadvantage.
character description on binoculars will be enough and ability to play some role in game and good old 2D sprites from fallout.
I really doubt this. Checking the description box and all is just way too artifical, time consuming and fiddly. Not even Fallout and Fallout 2 have done this all the time. Various characters had unique models-- Gizmo, Lou, Lynette, Vic, etc. The problem is, all these rendered graphics are using a lot space, which is also the reason why a lot got cut out.
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For player characters it's 3d or bust. There's so much pro and so little con.
But still I don't like where the 3d dev is going. Items in 3d will kill the framerate. I just don't belive that fo has the needed options to combine 500-800 items in every tent and base into few geoms. There's no gpu on the market that can render that many independent objects at more then 5-10fps.
Items should stay 2d, for non-weapon-type-items in pc hands a small box, medium box, large box is all that is needed. Time spent making items that will be 4x4px in game is just waisted.
Creatures can also stay 2d. There's no need to customize ghuls, mutants or dogs.
The 3d dev team should focus on PCs and finish all that needs to be done with armours, weapons, hair, phenotypes, animations, etc before even thinking of making anything else.
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Creatures can also stay 2d. There's no need to customize ghuls, mutants or dogs.
Yes I don't get why devs made rats and deathclaws 3D for example.
What's the purpose of this, besides lowering framerate? You can't rotate camera anyway.
Especially with rats difference is hardly noticeable and I wouldn't exactly say it looks better.
Animation is a bit more smooth, that's all.
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It was a test and all that. We just haven't reverted it yet.
I find the difference between old and new rats quite big.
There is pretty much a need to customize ghouls and mutants, as they will become a playable race. Also I see no reason why we shouldn't add more variations for the animal life. There is not just one type of dog in the world or what about reptiles, little snakes, unique looking brahmins (brahmins with actual packages on their back), etc. Lots of possibilities.
The world of 2238 is very big and we only have a limited amount of 2D critters and we will always have only a limited amount. We are already at a point where everything is visualy repeating over and over again. Fallout and Fallout 2 didn't had this problem so much. Especially in Fallout, every location got their own graphic set, with their own NPCs who fitted to the locations style, while in 2238 you see the same over and over again in every location. You can't balance that out with good mapping. After a while, you just see every figure over and over again in every place. That's boring, tiresome and monotone. Why do you think there had been so many 2D critter editing projects? Long hair dude, bald head dude, black dude, etc. it has a reason: Diversity.
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and the 2D spites are hard to make, unlike 3D models
you shoud think outside the box
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I'd take one working 2d dog-look today then 10 unique 3d dogs next summer.
I'd take a 3d char now, then wait 2 more years for the mutants to be done.
As long as 3d development is this big one part pack (all or nothing) then it always will be in development never finished.
Sure, 10 types of dogs, 8 types of ghuls, 20 mutants and a unique look for every named NPC would be great, but not if I have to wait 2-3 years for them. Something finished is always better then everything started.
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Thats why the current task is to finish humans. ;) Everything else comes later: Additional animations, lots of fancy hats and stuff. But this is community work and we aren't restricting anything, so if someone was in the mood to do something like that, we aren't saying "don't do this!"
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I was wondering, all those non-armor/weapons items are just to be "held in hand" aye? 'couse just like Pistacja, I can't imagine them lying on the ground. It would absolutely kill my computer :-x
But on the other hand, most of us work mostly on PC. There are only few people who are making other kind of things. And they are mostly from the russian community, so they don't really follow our path of developement
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Items on ground is not planned for the moment, so don't worry. It's all about critters + stuff they carry around.
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Fun fact: all the sprites you like so much are pre-rendered 3D models.
Also Fallout in 3D might look rather this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xzYmQyHl2bc) than this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1uuDKrY7eW0) if done right. Though scenery is going to be 2D, unless developers will change their minds, which is not on horizon.
I can sure say however, that quality control should be clear for everyone. I mean if you take a look at some PC armors, like leather armor, it looks nowhere near the original, is it final model? Nobody knows.
As well as it is not clear what it's going to be at all - there are tons of various clothing/armor models that would never fit Fallout, and would look weird even in Fallout 2, some might get scared because they have no idea what's going on with them.
Items should benefit from 3d as well in my opinion. It's not important to render them on fly, but why not do it at least once when the work has been done?
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Items on ground is not planned for the moment, so don't worry. It's all about critters + stuff they carry around.
Items in hands are though, right?
For consistency, -and it seems as though Johnnybravo was pointing this out- it may be a good idea to use pre-renders of those items for world sprites. It would, for the most part, look the same as though it was being rendered on-the-fly, since the object won't move at all. In fact, the only way it would be noticeable if done right, is if zoomed in - and even then, the resolution of the sprite could be high enough for that to not be an issue.
If making 2D sprites is that much of an issue, pre-renders of the 3D models could be used in pretty much every situation. Although I can't see that as being necessary, even for optimization. Low-poly 3D models aren't particularly hard to process.
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For my 3D is awesome idea and feature because we or somebody can recreate fallout games in the future. I think if we get perfect shaders we can make new armors, weapons and many other items or animations. Please guys keep this good work because you are my masters :)
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[troll] Come Crawling Faster/ Obey your Master![/troll]
i like 3D only for the the posibility of diversity with less work
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I like the idea of 3d, because of possibility of adding more animations. Before our few animators scream up in anguish "MORE ANIMATIONS?!!!", i'd say, it's up to the community to suggest and add new animations by themselves, like:
- drinking beer
- smoking
- injecting drugs
- brandnew martial-art-, melee weapons-, and gun moves
- new deaths
- skill-based weapon handling animations(critical drop of minigun by a noob, dealing spinning damage)
- critter anims: eating prey, critical attack animations, assault-type-damage animations (you kick rat differently than someone in the balls, rat responds like a football)
Take your pick or invent something completely different - it's not bound by being "not original-Fallout-looking", but your own will to create. But first, of course, the original anims must be done and i think Karpov and Luther are pretty left alone with this. Well, i'm doing my tutorial to change this.
@Luther in post below: Exactly! :)
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This is a good list, and I think ultimately they're all feasible, at least as far as the engine allows different actions for different objects etc. Also, I think new animations are probably much easier to do than replicating existing ones - you're not bound by trying to replicate something frame by frame, so there's a little creative freedom to use anything which looks about right - in a sense, the existing ones have only one "correct answer", whereas any additional animation may have ten or more "correct answers", if that makes sense.
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Personally, I think it is more important to add the regular animations for each weapon in hand. What I mean is that you can open a door with your rifle still in your other hand, and not having it magically disappear, and reappear when the door is open. It is quite a lot, and I'm talking about regular animations only.
One thing I've seen is that the VB critters limp when they are crippled, this is quite nice.
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Personally, I think it is more important to add the regular animations for each weapon in hand. What I mean is that you can open a door with your rifle still in your other hand, and not having it magically disappear, and reappear when the door is open. It is quite a lot, and I'm talking about regular animations only.
Opening door animation, why not?
(http://www.tinygif.net/thumbnails/2133317894ed248f5ca89a.gif) (http://www.tinygif.net/image-10028253174ed248f5d8d6d.htm)
One thing I've seen is that the VB critters limp when they are crippled, this is quite nice.
Now we're talking about limps on right or left leg with different weapons... or even pain-nursing left or right hand or holding a hand to crippled head. While it could be done, it needs a better workflow and more people involved, otherwise it would decelerate the process.
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there is one thing i cant stand
from vids i saw it seem there is completely no ...gore!
come on we all know its a fallout style to see terrible ways of dying ,blood and meat flying etc.
that seem to be undoable in 3d and for me its enough to hate that 3d era may come...
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there is one thing i cant stand
from vids i saw it seem there is completely no ...gore!
come on we all know its a fallout style to see terrible ways of dying ,blood and meat flying etc.
that seem to be undoable in 3d and for me its enough to hate that 3d era may come...
I'll try to add bigger chunks of flesh and more blood drops.
Oh please, the whole animation thread is consisting of getting death animations meaty enough when a video or a discussion shows up about deaths.
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I'm still working on that. There's blood and flesh flying , but somehow it is not visible. I will try to make them more visible, but that might require some extra polygons.
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ok i checked animations thread and all your vids karpov
must say theyr far better than i expected
but still its hell of a hard job to make gore look so juicy as in 2d
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but still its hell of a hard job to make gore look so juicy as in 2d
No doubt. But I'm still planning on adding some stuff, I have some ideas in mind. There's a new video by the way.
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I vote when holding a 2 handed weapon you kick the door open
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I vote when holding a 2 handed weapon you kick the door open
This.
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I vote when holding a 2 handed weapon you kick the door open
I don't really get why we can't just make the animation same as now. It's not a big deal, if the weapon disappears while opening a door. Kicking a door open maybe looks cool in combat, but in any other case... stupid?
Additionally the doors would open wrong direction in some cases which would make it look even more weird.
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I don't really get why we can't just make the animation same as now. It's not a big deal, if the weapon disappears while opening a door. Kicking a door open maybe looks cool in combat, but in any other case... stupid?
Additionally the doors would open wrong direction in some cases which would make it look even more weird.
Doors need to be reworked anyways. like the back door in modoc you can't click on from the outside, or doors that once opened you have to hunt out the one pixel for the door sticking out to close. I don't know about you but i kick open doors whenever i have my hands full (like if im holding dinner and a drink and need to get in my room)
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Doors need to be reworked anyways. like the back door in modoc you can't click on from the outside, or doors that once opened you have to hunt out the one pixel for the door sticking out to close. I don't know about you but i kick open doors whenever i have my hands full (like if im holding dinner and a drink and need to get in my room)
Well, this could be easily achieved by making a button to highlight items and doors for example.
It never bothered me when the weapon disappeared while interacting with objects in the game. Also you wouldn't need to make 3D doors or draw more door animations just because of a character's door opening animation.
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Players are walking around with guns in their hands, they might as well kick doors open. You can always put your weapon away and open it normally.
We all know it would be badass, but Opera is also right that it isn't really needed. It's a matter of personal taste and if you want to stay true to door opening in original fallout. Personally, I don't care.
And even if doors would be kicked open, there would be no need for 3D animation of doors. They could have the 2D animation but with increased speed so it looks like it swings open from impact, or even normal slow door animation wouldn't be that bad.
It also depends on the type of kick.
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Well, in the original game, the guy just holstered the weapon, opened the door, and then he put on the weapon back. Then you ended up going unarmed inside the city just because it was annoying. Since we don't have that in this game, it is already different from the original one. I guess kicking doors is not a viable option, because it uses the "Use" animation, so unless you can use a stimpack with your feet or kick a buffout into your mouth, it would be ridiculous. Anyway, I guess you could hold a big gun with one hand for just a second.
Sadly, the only experience I had with this specific animations was a failure. Don't know what, but I did something wrong and it didn't work when I tested...not that I cared much anyway. I could try again sometime.
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If its in 3d why would they use the same animation for everything?
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If its in 3d why would they use the same animation for everything?
Good point. I guess I'm only thinking about what I am able to do and I'm not seeing the whole picture.
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I suggest make some highpoly stuff for scenery, like rocks, cliffs, ruins, buildings, plants, water, tunnel portals etc.
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Definitely agree with you on that one. Given that much of the scenery stuff can be rendered out, it'd be great if someone could set up a rendering template for the lighting and size of things etc. It'd be great to open this stuff up for a bit more variety in general modding and mapping etc. There's some bits on NMA forums I think, and judging by some of the work done on Desert Europe and What Remains etc, there's certainly some people about on here who know this stuff.
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can we just use a static image of this high poly background stuff, my poor lappy already has heatstroke from radtoads.
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Sorry, I wasn't quite clear there - I was referring to rendering them out as background images, rather than having the actual models in there.
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I suggest to add more female stuff, like bodytypes, hairstyles and skins. (https://i.imgur.com/PWodn.jpg)
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Weren't the different female bodies uploaded?
I remember there were some been trying to look up them from my back ups but no success so far.
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No, i havent found any other bodytypes, just one that i modified in some kind of weak one and posed. I also noticed that the head of female mesh is a bit too broad for feminine features.
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Was able to find them although they were at a test stage so some works should be done with them.
http://fodev.net/forum/index.php/topic,2407.msg148025.html#msg148025
Luckily download is still active will look at them in the weekend.
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Id like to suggest to add a possibility to replace the frames on 2238 with 3d models clientside. This way everyone will be given a possibility to play 2238 while working on 3d as modmakers.
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Bump for interest.
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The main 3D off/on switch is in \Server\scripts\_defines.fos, which is server side.
// 3d players mod, uncomment for use
#define PLAYERS_3D // Enable 3d players
#define PLAYERS_3D_NO_HEAD // No head slot
#define PLAYERS_3D_VAULT_SUITE // Vault suite by default, not naked
Genuinely have no idea if it's easy (or possible) to make that a client side option instead. I'd imagine it's technically possible, but definitely not simple. I'd also expect there to be annoying problems with stuff like needing multiple versions of character screens, multiple instances of "basic human" and a series of things which translated "if they're wearing this armour, look like this in 3D but this in sprite" and so on.