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Other => FOnline:2238 Forum => Archives => Suggestions => Topic started by: NDH1187 on January 26, 2010, 05:48:37 am
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Ok, today we talk about melee and unarmed chars. They're too weak, too useless in gang war, and it's really not good, Black Isle wanted all kind of chars in Fallout 2 have their own special power and technics. Let say, Sniper have the deadly instant death and blinded effect + biggest range 50, Rocketeer have their knockdown with range 40, Plasma gunner have very big damage output like Light Support Weapon gunner with everage range, Thrower have very deadly damage output and knockdown effect at range 15, and what about Melee + Unarmed???
They can just fight at range 1 or 2 (if that's Super Sledge), and what they have for exchange that disadvantage? Nothing! In turn based, they maybe ok, but war gang in towns or any realtime battle just not the place for them. The attack animation make the low AP cost advantage gone, and they have no effects, no knockdown until critical hits but it's very rare. In contrast with Thrower + Plasma grenade, 1 throw to someone wearing MA2 will result 50-70 HP (tested), with 11 AP, they can throw 4 grenades before stop throwing, and nearly every grenades have knockdown effect, which means 200-280HP at the start of the fight with 2-3 knockdown. Ok, Thrower have knockdown, 60 damage, range 15 - melee have range 1, and no effect, damage just 1x-2x (Ripper hit MA2), so ... ?
You will say : oh, come on, then you can just make a thrower char and play it, forget about melee ! No, Fallout 2 means every playing style have their own unique power, no one is god because everyone is god !
I know that Fallout 2 have a weapon perk that gives knockdown and knockback effect, which Super Sledge was intent to have. But I tested it, a melee char or a Melee Mercenary, with 20 hits, only 1 became Knockdown, and there was no knockback !
The only guys that have better knockdown is Death Claws, but it's still rare, only 1/6 of their attacks have knockdown when attack a Sniper with 5 ST 4 EN and no Stonwall perk.
Do you think that you can fire a Sniper Rifle/Light Support weapon/Plasma Rifle when Jackie Chan is attacking you with his unarmed attacks? You think you cant ? Dont lose your faith, at least in Fonline, you can do that !
Ok, here's my suggestion : check out the perk for knockdown and knockback effects, if it still working, double or even tripple their chance, so melee or unarmed can have about 30% knockdown chance and some bonus from Strength, Super Sledge have 30% knockback and knockdown chance. Dont say it's too much, because someone have Stonewall and Quick recovery nearly wont suffer from it (like Bigguner, Thrower etc), and those suffer from it is stupid Sniper / Long range fighters that let Jackie Chan gets near ;D.
Come on, I think we should improve melee and unarmed chars, also the critters, not as much as player chars, but at least more than they have now. A Deathclaw can kill a Enclave or Brotherhood with ease, but in Fonline, he cant, he's just a little chicken that players hunting for easy exp !!! Where's the Justice? Dreadful Big bad Deathclaw only have 2xx HP and the little humanoid Enclave have 627 HP with 75% crit chance???
I dont know much about programing, but I think changing that perk is possible, and devs can do it easily.
If you have better ideas to improve melee/unarmed chars, please post it here, we must find a way to help these chars !
P/s : I'm a long range fighter, for those who think I'm acting on my own interests.
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This feature IS in game , and working correctly. With a well made melee character, more than half the attacks with supersledge will send opponent flying, and most times, knocked out of the fight.
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If anything hth/melee just needs to be able to run when attacking, people can just run away from you. The only chance you have is to cripple the legs.
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better whine to give auto(running)attack option not slow motion walk ;)
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If anything hth/melee just needs to be able to run when attacking, people can just run away from you. The only chance you have is to cripple the legs.
But before that dying needs to punish players more. Otherwise we got bluesuit meleebuilds running around and nobody can do anything about them because they got nothing to lose.
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If you want to buff unarmed, make this a level 3 perk for decent unarmed/melee skilled characters.
In Your Face! is a perk from Van Buren, the canceled Fallout 3 project by Black Isle, and J.E. Sawyer's Fallout Role-Playing Game.
Opponents can't make called shots with thrown weapons or firearms when you are within 1 hex and are only holding melee weapons or are unarmed. They also suffer a -10% penalty to hit with those weapons against all targets.
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Opponents can't make called shots with thrown weapons or firearms when you are within 1 hex and are only holding melee weapons or are unarmed. They also suffer a -10% penalty to hit with those weapons against all targets.
Just not fair, because it only affects Sniper and Long ranger fighter, big gunners wont suffer from it, then Big gunner will have a new advantage, just get close, Sniper cant aim you anymore, and brrrr... reload ...brrrrr.... oh, they're all dead hehe :-X. You hold a minigun in your hand and still can easily rotate it to fire at Jackie Chan who jumping around, locking down your hands and legs ? ;)
This feature IS in game , and working correctly. With a well made melee character, more than half the attacks with supersledge will send opponent flying, and most times, knocked out of the fight.
Really? Can you test it again and take a picture to prove it, of course in Fonline not Fallout 2? If you're right, can you tell me which will decides the knockdown chance? Because I tested on a Sniper with 5 ST 4 EN no Stonewall get hit by 2 Melee Merc with Super Sledge, then I test that Sniper with a melee char, 40 hits total, just 2 is knockdown, 1 knockback, and that knockback have no knockout effect as you say. I dont know what was wrong ...
But before that dying needs to punish players more. Otherwise we got bluesuit meleebuilds running around and nobody can do anything about them because they got nothing to lose.
You got your gun on your hand, dont be afraid, and if you dont, just run when they still far from you, wasteland is wasteland, you're weaker - you got to run ;). The harassments is base on our bad multi account controlling, not about strong melee or not.
I think enable running attack is just good, or even add some knockdown effect when melee/unarmed hit someone from behind, it's reality, dont you think?
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Just not fair, because it only affects Sniper and Long ranger fighter, big gunners wont suffer from it, then Big gunner will have a new advantage, just get close, Sniper cant aim you anymore, and brrrr... reload ...brrrrr.... oh
Please read again this part:
when you are within 1 hex and are only holding melee weapons or are unarmed
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What tha hell...
But before that dying needs to punish players more. Otherwise we got bluesuit meleebuilds running around and nobody can do anything about them because they got nothing to lose.
Being able to fight only in melee range is already big enough ''punishment''. What they should implement is that if you press attack on a target while having fists/weapon that's range is less than 3 (sledge, ripper, knife, cattle prod) you start to run at them, not crawl.
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Please read again this part:
Quote
when you are within 1 hex and are only holding melee weapons or are unarmed
Oh, you dont understand what I meant : they just keep their Light Support Weapon on the other hand, or if we search for the other hand also, they can keep it in inventory, most Biggun have at least 9AP, mean they can take the LSW out and burst in no second, and the Sniper cant count on the second aimed shot as before. So Biggun have more advatange, as they do not aim. And you know that Big gunners have enough power now, do you? If this perk come true, no melee will be create, just more bigguners, they have Rocket, they have awsome burst LSW, now the Sniper cant aim when they get close, Perfect !
Being able to fight only in melee range is already big enough ''punishment''. What they should implement is that if you press attack on a target while having fists/weapon that's range is less than 3 (sledge, ripper, knife, cattle prod) you start to run at them, not crawl.
I totally agree, melee range is a big disadvantage, very very big.
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Oh, you dont understand what I meant : they just keep their Light Support Weapon on the other hand, or if we search for the other hand also, they can keep it in inventory, most Biggun have at least 9AP, mean they can take the LSW out and burst in no second, and the Sniper cant count on the second aimed shot as before. So Biggun have more advatange, as they do not aim. And you know that Big gunners have enough power now, do you? If this perk come true, no melee will be create, just more bigguners, they have Rocket, they have awsome burst LSW, now the Sniper cant aim when they get close, Perfect !
"Take the LSW out and burst in no second"? You're forgetting the time it takes to open your inventory, drag the weapon across, the equipping animation to play, then to select their target. If the other guy has just been standing there the whole time and let them do all that, they deserve to die.
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Bluesuits have nothing to lose? It's a 6 minute wait until you can play again and your chances of surviving a pvp encounter with hth are pretty slim.
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@NDH1187
here are couple screens showing the effect of supersledge. I stayed in same spot
(http://thumbnails17.imagebam.com/6550/758e1565494005.gif) (http://www.imagebam.com/image/758e1565494005)
(http://thumbnails21.imagebam.com/6550/33fa0165494007.gif) (http://www.imagebam.com/image/33fa0165494007)
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"Take the LSW out and burst in no second"? You're forgetting the time it takes to open your inventory, drag the weapon across, the equipping animation to play, then to select their target. If the other guy has just been standing there the whole time and let them do all that, they deserve to die.
Pretty easy with pratice, just order to run, press I, pick up LSW, when the character in place, wait for the Sniper shoot first, just 1x-2x damage, then drop LSW to hand, now, he dont run he die. I dont say that it's a surely victory for biggun, I just say that it'll be more power for them, before that perk, Sniper can have rely on their 1st and 2nd aim shot before begin to run, but now just the 1st.
To Thebob : ok, looks fine, but the different is you aimed, aimed means you have more criticals which leads to knockdown and knockback, but look at the damage you made : they're nude, you crit, and just 19-20 HP !
1 Hit of aimed Super Sledge is 6 AP, with just lower than 1 Sniper hit 2AP (which is 8AP) and as same as a LSW burst or Rocket, you have range 1, they have range 50-40, even if you stand just in front of a Sniper, his damage always better than you, with Armor piercing 223 ammo and better crit chance.
What I mention is this knockdown and knock back chance will be there even if you dont aim (something like chance = 3*Strength, which mean your basic knockdown chance will be 30% with ST10), with EN + Stonwall roll to decide if it's a fall or not.
If you aim, it will even more chance to knockdown. Dont say this is to much, their damage just too low ! A LSW burst at range 1 6AP will pop up with 1xx HP (MA2), with high EN + Stonwall + Quick Recovery, they still can handle these melee chars, which even rise their distribution in gang wars more !
So, more knockback knockdown chance and running attack when it's within 3 hexes is good enough.
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now u going off on some tangent.
man, i dont even know.. That character has 31% crits, still does the knockbacks without being aimed shot
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Hmmm, but the knockback and knockdown is rare if not aimed, isnt it?
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May I ask why would anyone want knockback? Knockdown is alright but knockback? Melee chars want to be next to their enemies.
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You shouldn't forget about one major adventage of melee chars. They don't use or need ammo. Sledge is really easy to make in 3 minutes or so. When you are unarmed you are at half combat ability just after respawn. Ammo production is shitty and takes so much time. If HtH combat was fixed [it's broken, not underwhelmed, broken] and bonus move would be made better (+3 ap's to move) I would probably never play range combat guy because I just hate the waiting game.
Knockback is soo fun if you have imagination :)
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You shouldn't forget about one major adventage of melee chars. They don't use or need ammo. Sledge is really easy to make in 3 minutes or so. When you are unarmed you are at half combat ability just after respawn. Ammo production is shitty and takes so much time. If HtH combat was fixed [it's broken, not underwhelmed, broken] and bonus move would be made better (+3 ap's to move) I would probably never play range combat guy because I just hate the waiting game
It's not much about equipment, with gang's help, equipment is not a problem.
Super Sledge not that easy, 5 alloys, 5 Metal parts, 5 Electronic Parts, which means soloer cannot craft it easily.
Bonus move have no use in real time combat.
When Bonus HTH attack perk is fixed, it also the time for Bonus rate of Fire fixed, so no change much.
Range fighter have their advantage, long range, far scout, you can fire someone when he even doesnt know about your presence. You can just snipe and run, but melee cant, you can fire 2-3 shot before someone get close, which melee cant.
Yeah, knockback is very good, especially for fun ::).
Beside, when a Bigguner or Thrower or other melee want to get close to your gang's Sniper, knockback is good.
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Please make better unarmed/melee characters/perks. They suck so much. :(
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Please give run option for real time fights for HTH characters Attack + run in one click
OR
Perk that gives run as attack option, requiers hm... 150% melle/Unarmed
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Please give run option for real time fights for HTH characters Attack + run in one click
OR
Perk that gives run as attack option, requiers hm... 150% melle/Unarmed
Seconded.
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As have been said many many times - it's engine feature, and can't be changed by 2238 devs.
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well,here right,i man
Snipers:hi range,medium dmg,efects
R lowncer mav:medium-hi range:medium efects hi dmg
plasma rifle man
9that is me):medium range,low evects high dmg
trowers:low range hi dmg and efects
melle:v low range,vlow-medium dmg,allmoast no efect?????
so moral:please increas the melle dmg!!!!!!!! se here as well,or uncrees melle AP
here describes perfect the unarmed class: http://fodev.net/forum/index.php?topic=329.0
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Melee should have often knockdown and knockback on humanoids. Just think if you were hit by a (sledgehammer about 5kgs right?) in your Torso thinking of a animation like in Fallout you would definitely fall.
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Melee should have often knockdown and knockback on humanoids. Just think if you were hit by a (sledgehammer about 5kgs right?) in your Torso thinking of a animation like in Fallout you would definitely fall.
Yea. It does, and it works fine
In fact I made a video because I was bored, to show how npc's don't react hostile if you hit their friends, but it also shows how knockback does work.
Aimed shots, Unaimed shots both do alot of KB/KD , supersledge, crowbar, combat knife, spear they all work, if you dont see it....Make a better melee build.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qxxIPFnvWyY (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qxxIPFnvWyY)
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With Super Sledge always attacking eyes, huh? :)
Make the same video with Spear and Combat Knife.
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Ok, meele characters are maybe good, with Super Sledge. And Unarmed ?
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Unarmed is a crippler imo. At least, i can -in theory- cripple both legs or arms in one turn, but to be fair, other characters can do that too...
Only problem is, that if youre against a char with high endurance(pvp), theres only a small chance to cripple...
http://falloutmods.wikia.com/wiki/Critical_hit_tables
The parts with "Roll EN or get 'effect'"
Secondary attacks should have an effect that lowers EN of the enemy. Like certain item perks reduce AC, or DR... They cost even more AP then aimed sniper shots, and tbh, i dont see any benefits to use them, because i can just try to cripple twice with haymaker in a turn.
The armor piercing effect is useless, because:
Piercing Kick
Requirements: Unarmed 125%, Agility 8, Strength 6, Level 15
Damage: +12, armor piercing
AP: 9
Critical Chance: +50%
With the bonus of aimed shot+50%, you will score a guarenteed crit every time afaik, and most critical effects bypass armor anyway, and doesnt need an EN or LK roll to get the effect.
If piercing strikes could have an increased crippling chance(with the help of reduced EN) i would surely use it more often. My 2 cents
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Ok, meele characters are maybe good
No.
I don't give a fuck about what Bob say, Melee need reworks exactly like Unarmed. Only 'cause he can pwn some noobs means nothing.
I see many people complaining about Melee and just him say "Oh no, you are all noobs, HtH are good as they are".
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With Super Sledge always attacking eyes, huh? :)
Make the same video with Spear and Combat Knife.
If you had actually paid attention, you would have seen that half the strikes were to arms and leg...
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Change nothing.
I repeat: do the same video with Combat Knife and Spear, since you said it knockback/knockdown "a lot".
You know, "I don't see it" , maybe I should make a better build like you ::)