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Other => FOnline:2238 Forum => Archives => General Game Discussion => Topic started by: Ville on August 15, 2012, 12:43:18 am

Title: For the thousand time...
Post by: Ville on August 15, 2012, 12:43:18 am
For the thousand time remove this stupid AC shit!
Title: Re: For the thousand time...
Post by: TKs-KaBoom on August 15, 2012, 12:45:21 am
I voted no, because I think it's refreshing to piss of faction pussies that think they are unbeatable with their high tier gear and super secret battle tactics!  Finally this game is going in the right direction.
Title: Re: For the thousand time...
Post by: S.T.A.L.K.E.R on August 15, 2012, 12:46:16 am
Make a 300% BG/EW/SG then
Title: Re: For the thousand time...
Post by: chocolate_chip_cookies on August 15, 2012, 12:46:32 am
They already said they'll change it
Title: Re: For the thousand time...
Post by: manero on August 15, 2012, 01:28:14 am
For the thousand time remove this stupid AC shit!

Just stop hiding  ;)
Title: Re: For the thousand time...
Post by: Ville on August 15, 2012, 01:52:04 am
Just stop hiding  ;)

220 AC troll with C4 is hardly a cheap move and horrible feature of the game ::)

Maybe I should just make 20 fast relogs of C4 bombers with max ac as this seems to be the PvP best build and takes a lot of skill to play.
Title: Re: For the thousand time...
Post by: Perteks on August 15, 2012, 01:58:52 am
Maybe stop being pussies and fight like real mans ? No prefer to hide and whine like now :D
Title: Re: For the thousand time...
Post by: T-888 on August 15, 2012, 02:01:12 am
(http://img402.imageshack.us/img402/4894/trollcontrol.png) (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/402/trollcontrol.png/)
(http://img51.imageshack.us/img51/2436/trollcontrol1.png) (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/51/trollcontrol1.png/)
(http://img824.imageshack.us/img824/2373/trollcontrol2.png) (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/824/trollcontrol2.png/)

Nonsense, i didn't catch the real magnitude of them (not all AC on screen, only 1 2 normal sneaks rest AC), but the amount of troll characters simply ruining normal gameplay was ridiculous, my whole faction called bullshit on this and couldn't convince anyone to make another TC timer that day, glad some fighting started later in the same city, otherwise TC is just being swarmed by some morons. Like it's not bad enough that you might be attacked by multiple teams any moment, despite everything at the same time you have to deal with those idiots that are just pure annoyance and distraction, really uncomfortable and even worse for someone to waste time on a special build to counter this utter butter. No thanks.

Can't do a hot fix for this?

220 AC troll with C4 is hardly a cheap move and horrible feature of the game ::)

Maybe I should just make 20 fast relogs of C4 bombers with max ac as this seems to be the PvP best build and takes a lot of skill to play.

Players already got angry when we used C4 earlier this session, don't want to imagine what would happen with armor class.

(http://img829.imageshack.us/img829/1369/boom1x.png) (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/829/boom1x.png/)

Just some funny reminder. :)
Title: Re: For the thousand time...
Post by: Ville on August 15, 2012, 02:16:54 am
Yes I've been bombed by sot c4 characters as well, at least it was normal then to actually have a chance to be able to kill them before they got close.


I do not speak for any faction as I am just a solo player who does PvP, but this game is even more bull shit than it was. But where has sot been honestly this is the type of shit we fight on a daily bases on hours on end lately.

I think at least t-888 is on the same page as me that we just want a normal game like last wipe where all it was combat characters fighting eachother, not a bunch of HtH trolls AC jinxers running around annoying everybody.

I can handle C4 bombers, but with AC and jinxed its just way too over powered for suicide bombings. And it could get to the point where all we have to do is craft a bunch of c4 make 20 alts with 300% traps with max ac and jinxed and there you go a normal PvP experience ruined even further than it already is.
Title: Re: For the thousand time...
Post by: Swinglinered on August 15, 2012, 02:45:39 am
I love this (http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/troll).
Title: Re: For the thousand time...
Post by: Billy Carter on August 15, 2012, 02:55:46 am
Nice. But we don't. So you taking our time, guys.
Title: Re: For the thousand time...
Post by: Mayck on August 15, 2012, 10:32:50 am
I said it already and I'll say it again. AC problem is aknowledged and shall be solved and making thousand threads about how stupid this AC troll shit is won't make it any faster.
Title: Re: For the thousand time...
Post by: Xisingr Will on August 15, 2012, 10:48:01 am
I suggest nerfing AC, but not putting back to 90, maybe like 120 or something so it is still somewhat useful but not OP Unhittable Bluesuit fest.
Title: Re: For the thousand time...
Post by: DocAN. on August 15, 2012, 11:52:37 am
Here is some advice:

Make a 300% BG/EW/SG then

3hours on cents and problem solved.
Title: Re: For the thousand time...
Post by: Solar on August 15, 2012, 07:55:52 pm
Leave my lovely AC alone  :'(
Title: Re: For the thousand time...
Post by: manero on August 15, 2012, 07:59:33 pm
Leave my lovely AC alone  :'(

O
M
G

people thought you are dead.
Title: Re: For the thousand time...
Post by: falloutdude on August 15, 2012, 08:01:44 pm
I said it already and I'll say it again. AC problem is aknowledged and shall be solved and making thousand threads about how stupid this AC troll shit is won't make it any faster.
then do it allready

Leave my lovely AC alone  :'(
please play the game and realize how fucking stupid 220 ac is. a guy runs 10 hexs in  front of a sniper and the sniper cant hit him. seems legit.
Title: Re: For the thousand time...
Post by: LeonTheNorse on August 15, 2012, 08:09:53 pm
Mayck allready said a fix is one the way.

Just give it time and think of all the people that will cry when their ac chars are nerfed, and cant use them for anything.
Title: Re: For the thousand time...
Post by: falloutdude on August 15, 2012, 08:12:08 pm
Mayck allready said a fix is one the way.

Just give it time and think of all the people that will cry when their ac chars are nerfed, and cant use them for anything.

i dont see it being fixed for months so ac trolls will keep going for awhile. when ever there is a really needed fix to something it takes forever to fix it even when its a small fix.
Title: Re: For the thousand time...
Post by: T-888 on August 15, 2012, 08:14:18 pm
Leave my lovely AC alone  :'(

It must die.

Solar, a lot has gone wrong, much of you left behind is a pain in the ass and welcome back. :)
Title: Re: For the thousand time...
Post by: Tomowolf on August 15, 2012, 08:15:10 pm
OMG OMG OMG OMG OMG OMG OMG..... uff .
HE's BACK AND READY FOR NERFS BGS HIDE!!!!



Revenge of southern shovel fighters is near.
Title: Re: For the thousand time...
Post by: Solar on August 15, 2012, 08:23:43 pm
falloutdude, I was only joking ... how mean.

AC values were just pure guesses, so its not surprising that it wasn't perfect. From the initial readings on the whine-o-meter it seems the problem is more c4 and jinxed than the AC itself ?

No, not dead or starting my own game - just took a short break which turned into a longer break. Didn't realise it had been 5 months  :-\
Title: Re: For the thousand time...
Post by: falloutdude on August 15, 2012, 08:29:41 pm
falloutdude, I was only joking ... how mean.

ok sorry i just  hate ac so much.



Title: Re: For the thousand time...
Post by: Roachor on August 15, 2012, 08:30:09 pm
I'd love to see what magic ac builds you guys have, with 200 ac i got hit 5 times in a row while running at about 20 hex.
Title: Re: For the thousand time...
Post by: T-888 on August 15, 2012, 08:33:16 pm
AC values were just pure guesses, so its not surprising that it wasn't perfect. From the initial readings on the whine-o-meter it seems the problem is more c4 and jinxed than the AC itself ?

NO! There is nothing wrong with C4. :)

Both jinxed in conjunction with armor class is devastating, due to large amounts of shots required to even hit them with common builds, that leads to a lot of destroyed weapons, lost ammunition, lost turns etc. etc. it's easier to deal with sneakers despite their stealth advantage and currently any armor class character is more durable than any tank possible. Common builds out there have 50%(only snipers, bursters can't hit from few hexes, only if lucky burst spread) chance to hit like in the best case scenario of 7 or 8 hexes, it's easier to keep distance with an armor class character and scout than with a sneaker.
Title: Re: For the thousand time...
Post by: falloutdude on August 15, 2012, 08:35:25 pm
NO! There is nothing wrong with C4. :)

Both jinxed in conjunction with armor class is devastating, due to large amounts of shots required to even hit them with common builds, that leads to a lot of destroyed weapons, lost ammunition, lost turns etc. etc. it's easier to deal with sneakers despite their stealth advantage and currently any armor class character is more durable than any tank possible.
all this is true i also want to point out how stupid it is that even when am fighting a ac troll at 1 hex and all they do is move 1 hex i crit fail or break limbs. that is really op.
Title: Re: For the thousand time...
Post by: Roachor on August 15, 2012, 08:36:44 pm
NO! There is nothing wrong with C4. :)

Both jinxed in conjunction with armor class is devastating, due to large amounts of shots required to even hit them with common builds, that leads to a lot of destroyed weapons, lost ammunition, lost turns etc. etc. it's easier to deal with sneakers despite their stealth advantage and currently any armor class character is more durable than any tank possible.

As someone who has this build and actually has experience with it I can tell you this is pure bullshit. AC isn't as effective as you think and since the update ive seen exactly 0 guns explode while shooting at me and maybe a handful of drop weapons. Stop propagating myths and actually play the game once in a while.
Title: Re: For the thousand time...
Post by: falloutdude on August 15, 2012, 08:39:48 pm
As someone who has this build and actually has experience with it I can tell you this is pure bullshit. AC isn't as effective as you think and since the update ive seen exactly 0 guns explode while shooting at me and maybe a handful of drop weapons. Stop propagating myths and actually play the game once in a while.
you must only have 1 pe and not be able to see all the weapons blowing up and all the crit fails. also triple does 10000 times more pvp then you and fights more ac trolls then you ( you dont fight then sense you are one) so i think triple knows a hell of alot more then you.
Title: Re: For the thousand time...
Post by: Solar on August 15, 2012, 08:42:51 pm
Did anyone suggest jinxed having an effect on AC? If AC is fine and jinxed is fine, then making them not work together seems like an easy fix

Title: Re: For the thousand time...
Post by: Roachor on August 15, 2012, 08:47:43 pm
you must only have 1 pe and not be able to see all the weapons blowing up and all the crit fails. also triple does 10000 times more pvp then you and fights more ac trolls then you ( you dont fight then sense you are one) so i think triple knows a hell of alot more then you.

 ::) t 888 said himself he rarely plays, he's demonstrated before that he has no idea how the game mechanics work. You don't know what your hit chance is on ac builds, any useful build won't have 220. Considering I know what im using and 100% of my fights involve the build you're complaining about I'd say I know more. I've had people accuse non ac builds too just because they got a crit fail, you have no idea what the other persons build is so you can't comment on its effectiveness. In my testing in new reno people miss while shooting maybe 1/5 times, this runs totally contrary to the bitching im hearing from the pvp ape side of things. It's always the same story; new mechanic is introduced, it gives any build but bg viability in combat and the rivers of tears flow freely. In game experience > your fantasies.
Title: Re: For the thousand time...
Post by: T-888 on August 15, 2012, 08:49:06 pm
As someone who has this build and actually has experience with it I can tell you this is pure bullshit. AC isn't as effective as you think and since the update ive seen exactly 0 guns explode while shooting at me and maybe a handful of drop weapons. Stop propagating myths and actually play the game once in a while.

No i don't over-exaggerate, i played and experienced the effect they have few days ago and i am saying they are too effective, any common build just simply doesn't have the accuracy to hit an armor class character at any reasonable distance, it's few hexes most of the time unless someone leveled up a special build one purpose build to counter another one purpose build witch doesn't have any real purpose behind it rather than just annoy players.

Did anyone suggest jinxed having an effect on AC? If AC is fine and jinxed is fine, then making them not work together seems like an easy fix

And still having completely naked characters that avoid whole minigun spread bursts?(from few hexes) How that even makes sense.
Title: Re: For the thousand time...
Post by: Roachor on August 15, 2012, 08:53:53 pm
How does it make sense a guy with a minigun can run or even hold it? How does it make sense someone can burst someone at range with a minigun and have all the bullets hit? How does it make sense that a guy getting hit in the face with a sledgehammer can get the gun between himself and his attacker and shoot? How does it make sense that a guy with a minigun can fire 30 bullets in the same time it takes to fire one sniper round with the same level of accuracy?
Title: Re: For the thousand time...
Post by: Solar on August 15, 2012, 08:55:39 pm
That's more a problem of a minigun not really being a weapon that just sprays bullets out, but uses the same (ish) mechanism as a single shot weapon.

Its far less strange to think of a rifle missing a target that is moving quickly
Title: Re: For the thousand time...
Post by: Tomowolf on August 15, 2012, 08:59:40 pm
Just await those posts : nerf xx, update yy, "where you've been, we were waiting here!", nerf yy, update xx, also balance xx and yy.
Title: Re: For the thousand time...
Post by: avv on August 15, 2012, 09:01:53 pm
Solar ac is bad because completely gearless player can operate by just making a good build. When death means nothing, gear is all that matters. Being effective without good gear is against the whole system fonline is based on.

Same applies to unarmed, sneaking and crit-based characters. That's why they are generally regarded as "troll chars". It would improve the gameplay tremendously if we could get rid of that kind of characters and force everyone to use gear that's worth looting if they wanted to be effective.
Title: Re: For the thousand time...
Post by: T-888 on August 15, 2012, 09:04:56 pm
How does it make sense a guy with a minigun can run or even hold it?

Missing the point, your just a bad troll man, we all know that armor class needs to be nerfed.

Solar ac is bad because completely gearless player can operate by just making a good build. When death means nothing, gear is all that matters. Being effective without good gear is against the whole system fonline is based on.

The only way how to counter armor class characters now is another specialized build, witch is more alting.
Title: Re: For the thousand time...
Post by: Ville on August 15, 2012, 09:10:27 pm
AC values were just pure guesses, so its not surprising that it wasn't perfect. From the initial readings on the whine-o-meter it seems the problem is more c4 and jinxed than the AC itself ?

OMFG please play your own game before you start this everybody is just a bunch of whiners shit agian. Solar you are an intellegant developer do you not understand that blue suits with no gear that can't die is a horrible idea, you practically gave the ability to have god mode.

The issue is purely AC 220 blue suit running around can't die being shot by players in full gear isn't the wasteland is harsh game I once played.

The whole AC220 AC jinxed c4 bomber was an issue in PvP I had yesturday. It is not the only annoyance. Everything about the max AC is horrible. It is actually kind of rare but this was just a hypothetical idea I had to ruin the game, make an army of C4 Jinxed AC bombers insipired by a big bull shit death. It could be done but I wouldn't waste my time becuase nothing is settle when it comes to things being over powered.


Did anyone suggest jinxed having an effect on AC? If AC is fine and jinxed is fine, then making them not work together seems like an easy fix
But a fix with AC not working with jinx would be very nice also. I do not care for and make such crap characters anyways nerfing this combo is the greatest idea I've read and I'm not being sarcastic.
Title: Re: For the thousand time...
Post by: LeMark on August 15, 2012, 09:13:09 pm
Being effective without good gear is against the whole system fonline is based on.

100% agree with that.
Title: Re: For the thousand time...
Post by: Tomowolf on August 15, 2012, 09:15:58 pm
100% agree with that.
Sorry for being asshole, but (Yes I know that is against the whole system) all of mean perks, an skills will need to be reworked then (sneak, unarmed traits, melee traits, throwing traits, jinxed, ac system).
So for now at least we shouldn't be thrown in bigger toilet than we are now.
Title: Re: For the thousand time...
Post by: Wiktor_pl on August 15, 2012, 09:17:14 pm
I'm not pro pvper, but got to say: avv + t888 opinion about TC and what is best for it >>>> Roachor's opinion :D
Free AC ninja scouting more efficient than skilled sneaker, blind jinxed/max AC trollbuild. It even sounds bad, lol.
I think AC is cool feature, but should be limited to point where normal BG can hit the target (its not Matrix, god damn it) from resonable range.
Title: Re: For the thousand time...
Post by: Solar on August 15, 2012, 09:20:12 pm
I'm just asking what the situation is, I've not seen anything in 5 months - calm down :P

avv, gear denial is a problem, as it always has been when trying to do anything with melee, unarmed, sneak etc. Making bluesuits worse seems like a better way than abandoning the whole AC concept.

If AC is too high that's a simple fix. If its the reaction with jinxed that seems simple enough too.
Title: Re: For the thousand time...
Post by: Roachor on August 15, 2012, 09:22:38 pm
You guys realize gear worth is totally subjective? I mean I can farm avengers all day and carpet my base but I can't farm mega power fists. I can easily acquire CA but it lowers ac so it's not worth the trade off. No build in this game is dangerous without gear, if your biggest problem is bluesuits then man up and grow a pair.
Title: Re: For the thousand time...
Post by: T-888 on August 15, 2012, 09:23:13 pm
If AC is too high that's a simple fix. If its the reaction with jinxed that seems simple enough too.

Maybe don't remove jinxed from working with armor class, instead decrease the frequency of the bad side effects in conjunction with lowered armor class.

if your biggest problem is bluesuits then man up and grow a pair.

Go away.
Title: Re: For the thousand time...
Post by: Ville on August 15, 2012, 09:25:47 pm
I'm just asking what the situation is, I've not seen anything in 5 months - calm down :P

Sorry this game just makes me a bitter asshole at times. Welcome back, this game needs one of its best developers back to working on it. I have gained a little faith with solar back.
Title: Re: For the thousand time...
Post by: Solar on August 15, 2012, 09:38:26 pm
Maybe don't remove jinxed from working with armor class, instead decrease the frequency of the bad side effects in conjunction with lowered armor class.

Seems like the most reasonable approach.

What Roach is saying should be the case, I have no idea if it is (I would be surprised if it was). If we can make the truely bluesuited less of a threat, then there isnt such a problem with an unarmoured guy with a powerfist being dangerous.

Quote
Sorry this game just makes me a bitter asshole at times. Welcome back, this game needs one of its best developers back to working on it. I have gained a little faith with solar back.

Mayck has already said it would be fixed, hadn't he? Nothing magic would happen because I'm back, these things just take time. Fixes are in the works already, I'm sure.
Title: Re: For the thousand time...
Post by: Tomowolf on August 15, 2012, 09:40:36 pm


... there isnt such a problem with an unarmoured guy with a powerfist being dangerous...
Instead powerfist, put heavy handed here please.
Title: Re: For the thousand time...
Post by: T-888 on August 15, 2012, 09:45:15 pm
whole AC concept.

Maybe it was doomed from the very beginning if you thought that armor class is supposed to be the saving grace for melee characters as a gap closer. I'd say it was doomed, doesn't work very well weighting all opinions and how it looks in game.

Have you ever thought mixing armor class effect(at reduced rate) with some sort of additional damage resistances while upon wearing armor for melee/unarmed?

Oh yeah i wanted to remind you, start off where you left, remember thinking about heavy handed being 50% chance to KD with 10 STR for unarmed(weaponless) and higher better chance to KD with unarmed weapons in usage, like mega power fist really granting 100% and power fist maybe some 85% like that, i remember reading this idea from your posts.
Title: Re: For the thousand time...
Post by: Ville on August 15, 2012, 09:45:22 pm
Lowering the frequency of jinxed is also good idea, I think you should also still have all the doding and hth perks available but lower their AC affects to +5 only or something. I just think 220-240 is just way too much. I think the cap should go back to 120 or maybe 150 with all perks taken, just rework the numbers in the dodging and hth evade perks.


Also speaking of power fist didn't solar have the idea of heavy hand not working unless you have power fist equiped? I really liked that idea.
Title: Re: For the thousand time...
Post by: Roachor on August 15, 2012, 09:49:19 pm
Lowering the frequency of jinxed is also good idea, I think you should also still have all the doding and hth perks available but lower their AC affects to +5 only or something. I just think 220-240 is just way too much. I think the cap should go back to 120 or maybe 150 with all perks taken, just rework the numbers in the dodging and hth evade perks.

220 is the max, ac only starts having a noticeable effect around 160. That and the 2 20 ac perks are really shit value for a perk slot. Without kamikaze you'd have 120 ac max for non hth build which is basically useless. With kamikaze wearing armour has no effect since the -15% eats up
what little defense provided.
Title: Re: For the thousand time...
Post by: Solar on August 15, 2012, 10:09:14 pm
Quote
Instead powerfist, put heavy handed here please.

answered by:

Quote
Oh yeah i wanted to remind you, start off where you left, remember thinking about heavy handed being 50% chance to KD with 10 STR for unarmed(weaponless) and higher better chance to KD with unarmed weapons in usage, like mega power fist really granting 100% and power fist maybe some 85% like that, i remember reading this idea from your posts.

I don't think the AC concept was doomed. Fundamentally, allowing close range chars to get closer at a reduced rate is workable.

Let's at least wait until we're past the very first iteration. Especially when that only involved me making complete guesses :)
Title: Re: For the thousand time...
Post by: avv on August 15, 2012, 10:11:42 pm
Even 120 ac is too much. Snipers are highly dependent on good hitchance from maxrange. If high ac bg can just run to a sniper and open fire from burster maxrange (35 hex), sniper will never win. They are having hard times even now.
90 was ok, but bluesuit should have 0 ac always. Game shouldn't encourage not wearing armor at all. Armor penalties to ac could be removed completely to help builds that actually want to use gear.

Could also implement a rule that ac stops working at 5 hex range. This way nobody could run right next to you while you got 5% hitchance. There should always be a way to kill another player if you have a weapon that does enough damage.
Title: Re: For the thousand time...
Post by: T-888 on August 15, 2012, 10:28:10 pm
Make guesses together with someone and compare yours. 8)

I'd try decreasing armor class to 150 and then see how it turns out, 90 AC indeed was hardly usable for close quarter combat characters, but this number is just my guess (70 less AC seems like an appropriate dose of balancing) + lower chance for jinxed to occur at least 30% less, lost drop weapon, lost turn, critically missed happens very often in general.

...

I haven't seen any armor class powerbuild big gunners now with all 220 cap. Only some low health point bluesuits with miniguns witch aren't very practical. Take notice that kamikaze decreases damage resistances appropriately now and big gunner isn't able to use perks witch are meant to increase armor class for unarmed witch ultimately decreases the total and have to wear armor to be effective witch is more reduction of armor class.

I'd actually like to see some hybrid kamikaze sniper builds witch counters other sniper lines of just soaking up some of the first shots as misses, it's cool in my opinion. :) Players that use gear never were the problem remember.
Title: Re: For the thousand time...
Post by: Solar on August 15, 2012, 10:44:34 pm
What's been suggested on irc was tie in an AC drug, which seems reasonable to me. Perhaps 150 available normally, with 50 - 70 AC from the drug.

I also quite like the idea of the 5 hex limit, if you could time it so you got them in the 2->5 hex range when AC stops working and before in your face kicks in ... a little bit of micro ;)

Title: Re: For the thousand time...
Post by: T-888 on August 15, 2012, 10:49:18 pm
So you want to keep 220 in total? Adding armor class drug? Sixth drug to add to powerbuilds, more sophisticated builds to counter the increase of armor class, don't see how this will solve any issues here.
Title: Re: For the thousand time...
Post by: avv on August 15, 2012, 10:52:16 pm
What's been suggested on irc was tie in an AC drug, which seems reasonable to me. Perhaps 150 available normally, with 50 - 70 AC from the drug.

Any downsides from the drug? It has to have some or everyone will use it.

Quote
I also quite like the idea of the 5 hex limit, if you could time it so you got them in the 2->5 hex range when AC stops working and before in your face kicks in ... a little bit of micro ;)

Thing about in your face: it's also used by trollbuilds who got nothing to lose and makes things way too random. If someone gets onehexed by burst, he needs to die or at least lose lots of hp. In that situation there is no room for random 50% complete miss because life and death are on the edge of razor blade. Reliable onehexing is good feature and shouldn't be touched with randomness.
Along with the unarmed buffs, we got tons of bluesuit unarmeds harassing against actually geared players and coming back all the time after being killed for the tenth time. Last session crit-snipers were considered trolls, now the trolls use no gear at all.
Title: Re: For the thousand time...
Post by: JovankaB on August 15, 2012, 10:55:02 pm
Any downsides from the drug? It has to have some or everyone will use it.

Original idea was that it would be connected to one of current AC perks,
you would get AC bonus from the drug if you had the perk (or from the perk, if you ate the drug, w/e).
Title: Re: For the thousand time...
Post by: T-888 on August 15, 2012, 10:57:44 pm
50% (1/2 in the end of damage formula) less damage while being 1 hex sounds better and not random. By weighting some opinion i agree with avv.

Any downsides from the drug? It has to have some or everyone will use it.

Players just adapt builds to new drugs, as well those troll characters will, in the end the only downside will be the consumption of it, it is gone after using the drug.

Original idea was that it would be connected to one of current AC perks,
you would get AC bonus from the drug if you had the perk (or from the perk, if you ate the drug, w/e).

One less toughness, one more armor class perk + one more drug to involve to gain quite large amount of armor class boost even while using armor, i'd trade to that any day.

What in practice will happen, i will make a rocket launcher armor class build with 6 drugs(drug+that one perk should be enough from what i hear) and then snipers will really suck. Much whining on forums, demotivating etc. etc. why can't we stick to something solid?

I simply see the future if that makes you feel better. ;D
Title: Re: For the thousand time...
Post by: Roachor on August 15, 2012, 11:08:09 pm
BG shouldn't be able to fire on anyone within 2 hex then since its a bulky and awkward weapon.

I'm more in favor of replacing AC with perks that give % to dodge. Like 3 stacking perks that give 20% chance to dodge. That way its effectiveness wouldn't be determined by range. 5 perks and a trait to have a single ability is way too much.
Title: Re: For the thousand time...
Post by: Shangalar on August 15, 2012, 11:08:39 pm
Put some Support Perk, that needs hth / melee high skill level and/instead of the AC perk ?
Title: Re: For the thousand time...
Post by: T-888 on August 15, 2012, 11:13:04 pm
BG shouldn't be able to fire on anyone within 2 hex then since its a bulky and awkward weapon.

Sure and combat armor shouldn't be green because it's not good camouflage in the wasteland, and aiming with sniper rifle should randomly move your pointer once in a while to simulate harder aiming.
Title: Re: For the thousand time...
Post by: DocAN. on August 15, 2012, 11:15:33 pm
Stop this whine, make 300% EW and problem solved. If You play in team 1 will be enough.
Title: Re: For the thousand time...
Post by: T-888 on August 15, 2012, 11:19:18 pm
And what? Make another window of fonline to multitask this 300% EW character who otherwise is unpractical? I sure don't want to play to counter some bluesuits, who does?
Title: Re: For the thousand time...
Post by: Rascal on August 15, 2012, 11:31:11 pm
hmmm baldurs_gate-like ninja potion for AC boost... sounds very falloutish indeed :>

Title: Re: For the thousand time...
Post by: Tomowolf on August 15, 2012, 11:46:26 pm
Well for me, as a not pvp player(hush, dont insult me that im not playing that not balanced shit, sorry) I know for ANY player that heavy handed are "butthurt" and this is why : combined with ac, one can get to you, and endless kd you to death, and you lose precious gear, while when he dies, he loses only 1 minute of time, then gets back to the city, and so on.
I do not mean to just NERF all features we got in game, but balance it, ex: add it to the melee weapons also, and decrease the kd chance, so one got enough kd chance with sledge/power fist, super sledge/ mega fist.
First problem solved.
AC problem: It might sound shitty, but the true is, target is running almost always in fancy blue suit, just nerf that by adding disadvantages running in bs ( -100% sneak -50-100AC, you choice, because its colours are bright), and mess something with BGs and their miniguns, or add hex shooting for bazooka.
OR (another shitty idea) you can make when AC troll got hit but missed more than three times, he loses his bonus for 1 - 10 seconds, or loses all aps.
Those are just ideas, or my opinions, Im not against anything, but balance.
Title: Re: For the thousand time...
Post by: DocAN. on August 16, 2012, 01:27:16 am
And what? Make another window of fonline to multitask this 300% EW character who otherwise is unpractical? I sure don't want to play to counter some bluesuits, who does?

Your lost, its like 50+ frags/day.
Title: Re: For the thousand time...
Post by: T-888 on August 16, 2012, 02:08:13 am
I don't have fun in this game by grinding frags especially gearless players, not like you it seems.
Title: Re: For the thousand time...
Post by: Tomowolf on August 16, 2012, 02:12:04 am
I don't have fun in this game by grinding frags especially gearless players, not like you it seems.
That.
Title: Re: For the thousand time...
Post by: Ville on August 16, 2012, 04:04:23 am
Stop this whine, make 300% EW and problem solved. If You play in team 1 will be enough.

I don't have fun in this game by grinding frags especially gearless players, not like you it seems.

^this

Also I don't have fun wasting time leveling a 300% weapon skill build just to kill blue suits, I should be able to kill blue suits without making a specialized build for it. How stupid is this getting make an alt just to kill blue suits... The end is near its a sign of end times that we have to make an alt just to kill the shouting trolling blue suit. My characters that are designed to kill full geared characters should be able to the kill gearless bluesuit end of story. The wasteland is harsh the gearless nub needs to get sprayed without making a specialized build for it.
Title: Re: For the thousand time...
Post by: T-888 on August 16, 2012, 04:24:57 am
Maybe don't remove jinxed from working with armor class, instead decrease the frequency of the bad side effects in conjunction with lowered armor class.
Seems like the most reasonable approach.

I hope this will be chosen over some mad ideas of magic potions that boosts armor class, i rather await the next update knowing the changes made will be worth it, interesting ideas tend to go wrong and spoil fun if their not thought throughout, just like no armor class cap witch was one hell of a mistake.

the above mentioned idea could also have been something Solar was just toying around with. We all have such ideas, but never do anything serious with it.

I hope this is the case.

Title: Re: For the thousand time...
Post by: S.T.A.L.K.E.R on August 16, 2012, 04:35:48 am
yaay, people are saying AC bad, people say AC good, GM/Moderator gonna lock this thread.

Also I don't have fun wasting time leveling a 300% weapon skill build just to kill blue suits
pfft...who says only bluesuits, if you are sniper, you can probably do Max range to eyes 95% and same with BG's,

never miss shot except the jinx trait that might make you miss critical
Title: Re: For the thousand time...
Post by: chocolate_chip_cookies on August 16, 2012, 04:39:35 am
So what about just making bluesuit have no AC and making 220 AC possible with only like 100/100 brotherhood armor or something?
Because even 150 AC is kinda pointless. It's like sneak, it's either at 300 or it sucks.
Then maybe we'd have unarmed guys with powerfists and armor. And you'd need 300 EW alt to kill them but it would be worth it because it wouldn't just be some troll but a real build.
Title: Re: For the thousand time...
Post by: Ville on August 16, 2012, 05:06:20 am
hmmm baldurs_gate-like ninja potion for AC boost... sounds very falloutish indeed :>
I hope this will be chosen over some mad ideas of magic potions...

We shall name this potion, the drunken high mage's magic exiler of the trolls. Requires 300% alchemy and the ingridients are dragon bush, the great weed of smoking, elven pubic hair, and a jar of troll's blood.

But in all seriousness I doubt they would make it a "magic potion", I would hope it would be something "falloutish" and actually had a back story that was reasonable and tied in to a fallout game. Also I hope its expensive or its not something easy to obtian like trading 2 healing powders for. But I am very skeptical of a made up drug that wasn't in the original fallout games.

yaay, people are saying AC bad, people say AC good, GM/Moderator gonna lock this thread.
pfft...who says only bluesuits, if you are sniper, you can probably do Max range to eyes 95% and same with BG's,

never miss shot except the jinx trait that might make you miss critical

Before the AC cap removed I had a laser sniper and SG sniper with 250% skill and I would miss with eye shots when the cap was at 120. I also had an early wipe sneaker with 120 ac and it would troll aim shooters but I would still get bursted by the big gunners.
Title: Re: For the thousand time...
Post by: jacky. on August 16, 2012, 09:37:35 am
Or cut the crap with HH and AC and nerf it. And to this genious who said bg shouldnt be able to shoot from 1-2hexes...you must be really weak pvp player to post idea of removing onehex feature.
Title: Re: For the thousand time...
Post by: DocAN. on August 16, 2012, 09:51:16 am
I don't have fun in this game by grinding frags especially gearless players, not like you it seems.

Who said that frags are made on gearless players, if you cant handle few trolls and then, kill their armed folks with a laser rifle its your problem.
Title: Re: For the thousand time...
Post by: Wiktor_pl on August 16, 2012, 10:39:00 am
Even 120 ac is too much. Snipers are highly dependent on good hitchance from maxrange. If high ac bg can just run to a sniper and open fire from burster maxrange (35 hex), sniper will never win. They are having hard times even now.
90 was ok, but bluesuit should have 0 ac always. Game shouldn't encourage not wearing armor at all. Armor penalties to ac could be removed completely to help builds that actually want to use gear.

Could also implement a rule that ac stops working at 5 hex range. This way nobody could run right next to you while you got 5% hitchance. There should always be a way to kill another player if you have a weapon that does enough damage.
I must say thats a potentially big problem. Snipers are rather static element of army, they stand still and shoot everyone on max range (50 hex), thats their role, so they dont run around like BGrs, which role is to get to the enemy by running (and using AC). If we give a powerfull weapon like AC to BGs it may occure that snipers are effective, lets say, only from ~35hex, it will be pointless to make snipers, cause BG critbuild will win always while they exchange fire.
Title: Re: For the thousand time...
Post by: Roachor on August 16, 2012, 01:58:01 pm
Or cut the crap with HH and AC and nerf it. And to this genious who said bg shouldnt be able to shoot from 1-2hexes...you must be really weak pvp player to post idea of removing onehex feature.

It was to illustrate the stupidity of t-888's similar suggestion, although minimum range should exist for bg and scoped weapons because they are medium and long range respectively and should be less effective in close quarters.
Title: Re: For the thousand time...
Post by: manero on August 16, 2012, 02:35:20 pm
Make another window of fonline to multitask this 300% EW character who otherwise is unpractical?

It's practical as any other alt in game. I bet your apes dont craft, farm, lead group etc.

Since we have a Troll Hunter(300%ew, 12 pe build) in team i don't care about AC trolls. Let retards have fun  ;)

Btw. it's funny that author of this huge whine is a member of faction that use high ac all the time. But when we used it against them(we delivered 2 active bombs to their position and blew up) he started to cry.
Title: Re: For the thousand time...
Post by: Paladin on August 16, 2012, 03:06:16 pm
Whats purpose of AC feature ? We cant get PA or similiar amor for better protection so we have unhitable 220 ac trolls jinxed and of course 1 hex perk in your face. I think it can be 220 max limit but raise ammo AC mod for all weapons or some like flamer shotguns rifles etc or lower max AC.
 
Idea about 300 skill is nice but if troll hunter dies its same song as before.
And last thing if you have 300 skill and 12 and laser rifle you have about 70% hit chance (torso shot) to full AC troll on range so thats not that much.
Title: Re: For the thousand time...
Post by: jacky. on August 16, 2012, 04:03:57 pm
even in Matrix neo shooted AC troll agent smith with minigun. How could you doge 30bullets?
Title: Re: For the thousand time...
Post by: avv on August 16, 2012, 06:25:25 pm
It's practical as any other alt in game. I bet your apes dont craft, farm, lead group etc.

Since we have a Troll Hunter(300%ew, 12 pe build) in team i don't care about AC trolls. Let retards have fun  ;)

It's not about what can be done to counter these trollbuilds, but what the trollchars can do. Being effective without gear is against the idea of pvp and basically the "wasteland is harsh" rule. Wasteland must be equally harsh to everyone, even for trolls.
Title: Re: For the thousand time...
Post by: Roachor on August 16, 2012, 09:01:33 pm
even in Matrix neo shooted AC troll agent smith with minigun. How could you doge 30bullets?

That assumes you are strafing, so like max 3 bullets would hit.
Title: Re: For the thousand time...
Post by: Swinglinered on August 17, 2012, 12:43:23 am
It's not about what can be done to counter these trollbuilds, but what the trollchars can do. Being effective without gear is against the idea of pvp and basically the "wasteland is harsh" rule. Wasteland must be equally harsh to everyone, even for trolls.

Add AC to respawn time?

Only a small help, I admit.
Title: Re: For the thousand time...
Post by: Ville on August 17, 2012, 12:49:19 am
Btw. it's funny that author of this huge whine is a member of faction that use high ac all the time. But when we used it against them(we delivered 2 active bombs to their position and blew up) he started to cry.

We hardly use AC trolls, most of those idiot AC trolls are random people. I don't know what faction matrix is, I think the other one that shows up is sydious smack or something... I don't who these guys are what faction they are they randomly show up when TC timer starts. I could careless about getting bombed if it weren't for the fact it was on an AC troll. Its just stupid that I didn't bother to shoot lucky rat and let him run up because I knew this character was just going to jinx me and waste my ammo. Its a horrible feature of the game.

Lets just face it manero lucky rat wouldn't have made it past ascortis door if there wasn't this stupid AC feature. Nobody bother to shoot lucky rat because we know its a waste of time and it has AC and jinxed.


Just remember we still kicked your ass at klamath when you fast relogged 3 times and we never relogged once, but you don't see anybody bragging about it and nobody really gives a shit anyways. You win because you keep fast relogging and level 20 characters per person that is it. Just keep that in mind it take you guys on average 3-4 waves of fast relogs to kill any faction. You probably would win a few fights but would lose alot more if all you had was 1 wave and the old 10 minute timer.

What I like about the faction I pvp with they don't need to brag or make a bunch of troll posts to prove anything they play for fun, and they don't call anybody anything when they defeat them. But go ahead keep calling me a whiner and laugh, it is horrible game features that make me mad not losing to your obnoxious faction. I can accept lost and dying its part of the game, its horrible game features that is making me angry with this game more so than losing at PvP. I am still here playing you didn't make me rage quit and I won't leave any time soon thank you.

But go ahead say what you want I don't really care its done and over done with. Have fun playing in empty server nobody wants to PvP with AC trolls and fast relog abusers. Good nice job you win fights with fast relog big fucking deal.

Also I well say it agian I speak for myself. I do not speak or represent anything with the faction I PvP with nor do they feel the same way I do. Nor do they have the bitterness I do towards other factions. I may be frustrated with the game but I don't represent the faction views and I am not speaking for anybody except myself.
Title: Re: For the thousand time...
Post by: Kilgore on August 17, 2012, 01:29:00 am
We hardly use AC trolls, most of those idiot AC trolls are random people. I don't know what faction matrix is, I think the other one that shows up is sydious smack or something... I don't who these guys are what faction they are they randomly show up when TC timer starts. I could careless about getting bombed if it weren't for the fact it was on an AC troll. Its just stupid that I didn't bother to shoot lucky rat and let him run up because I knew this character was just going to jinx me and waste my ammo. Its a horrible feature of the game.

Lets just face it manero lucky rat wouldn't have made it past ascortis door if there wasn't this stupid AC feature. Nobody bother to shoot lucky rat because we know its a waste of time and it has AC and jinxed.
You were stupid enough to camp again inside the building and we were bored enough to bring AC char (the only one we have, probably) filled with explosives. Nothing to whine about, really, poor grim.

Quote
Just remember we still kicked your ass at klamath when you fast relogged 3 times and we never relogged once, but you don't see anybody bragging about it and nobody really gives a shit anyways. You win because you keep fast relogging and level 20 characters per person that is it. Just keep that in mind it take you guys on average 3-4 waves of fast relogs to kill any faction. You probably would win a few fights but would lose alot more if all you had was 1 wave and the old 10 minute timer.
Good that there is at least 2238 forum where you can win using your countless forum alts, poor grim.

Quote
Have fun playing in empty server nobody wants to PvP with AC trolls

It's so funny when _you_ talk about it. For some reason, most of these "random AC trolls" are known to be hawks. Should we start calling them "random hawks AC trolls"?

Btw grim, why are you still here? I thought you are dead.
Title: Re: For the thousand time...
Post by: Ville on August 17, 2012, 02:13:51 am
Yes, lets go with the thousand time theme as this is the thousand time I explain this, I raped a tent and I got trolled that the kid died and it gave me the idea to fuck with the amboys dukes head for a few days  becuase they raped my base. It was the only way to get revenge on them to fuck with their heads and twist their emotions, there was no possible way I could have base raped them back. How do you infiltrate and base rape a french faction if you don't speak french? How many times do I need to explain this or you going to keep trolling me with the same stupid fucking line? Yes so funny haha hes dead, the joke is old man come up with something new please nobody finds this funny any more.

Also its called strategy not hiding, to defend agaisnt 20 wave fast relog at a bottle neck.

Also I well not be shut up or get out I can stay here if I please and I well write what I want to write regardless. I have actually tried to not write shit posts and snipe lately but you are just trying to push my buttons aren't you kilgore? I do not see how this is productive or intellegant discussion of the game in anyway for every post you write lately is to troll me. But keep trolling with the same stupid joke I don't care its old man there is newer and better people to troll and make jokes about try it maybe? Nobody likes the same joke, people like new not old jokes.
Title: Re: For the thousand time...
Post by: Roachor on August 17, 2012, 04:00:36 am
So you can't hit an ac build entering a building because you'd miss? Are all your players blind with low skill? Ac only works at distance. Also hiding is a strategy btw.
Title: Re: For the thousand time...
Post by: McLooter on August 17, 2012, 04:04:42 am
In my opinion, if fast relog was removed, I would be completely accept AC trolls and make a build to counter them.
Title: Re: For the thousand time...
Post by: manero on August 17, 2012, 07:42:25 am
Just remember we still kicked your ass at klamath when you fast relogged 3 times and we never relogged once,

Did we whine like you when we lost? Nope. Anyway. You have Klamath only because we decided that this hole suits well The Cowards gang  ;D You - rats - can crawl among the other rats on trapper town hehe... Crawl poor grimmi, crawl.
Title: Re: For the thousand time...
Post by: wladimiiir on August 17, 2012, 08:01:18 am
My suggestion would be to make burst shots ignore AC - you just can't dodge all bullets.
And add -AC to ammo like rockets and grenades.
Title: Re: For the thousand time...
Post by: Ville on August 17, 2012, 08:03:19 am
Did we whine like you when we lost? Nope. Anyway. You have Klamath only because we decided that this hole suits well The Cowards gang  ;D You - rats - can crawl among the other rats on trapper town hehe... Crawl poor Grimm, crawl.



What would there to be whine about it was a normal battle and none of the annoying features like AC trolls was involved, and its a good town to fight in because fast relog sucks there because the spawns are so far away from the TC zones. It was a good normal fight which the way the game should be. Some how you little trollaks think you are trolling me and making me mad with your post lol, when in all reality its just bad developer decisions like AC trolls and no relog timer which is annoying and frustrating. Keep posting crap and get the topic locked hell if I care.
Title: Re: For the thousand time...
Post by: manero on August 17, 2012, 08:17:52 am
you little trollaks think you are trolling me and making me mad with your post lol

If you are still not mad i will invite some french to loot your raped corpse hehe

I want you rage.
Title: Re: For the thousand time...
Post by: Ville on August 17, 2012, 08:38:43 am
If you are still not mad i will invite some french to loot your raped corpse hehe

I want you rage.

Nope.
Title: Re: For the thousand time...
Post by: Paladin on August 17, 2012, 10:40:17 am
Did we whine like you when we lost? Nope. Anyway. You have Klamath only because we decided that this hole suits well The Cowards gang  ;D You - rats - can crawl among the other rats on trapper town hehe... Crawl poor grimmi, crawl.

LoL well you decided after ass kick dont you remember ?
Title: Re: For the thousand time...
Post by: manero on August 17, 2012, 11:15:35 am
As opposed to you I barely remember that insignificant fight somewhere in the middle of nowhere.
Title: Re: For the thousand time...
Post by: Wiktor_pl on August 17, 2012, 11:34:03 am
In my opinion, if fast relog was removed, I would be completely accept AC trolls and make a build to counter them.
One just can't simply remove fast relog.
There's legendary weapon called: "proxy". Forgot about it?
Title: Re: For the thousand time...
Post by: McLooter on August 17, 2012, 11:43:51 am
One just can't simply remove fast relog.
There's legendary weapon called: "proxy". Forgot about it?
Please, before you come to me about PvP, go play a major amount of it first.
First of all, at most, there was only 2 waves of enemies last session unless some crazy preparations.
On the other hand, proxies and characters got banned lots of times. (Yeah, some people still ignored bannings.)
Title: Re: For the thousand time...
Post by: McBorn on August 17, 2012, 12:25:49 pm
The solution could be after fast relog:
1. Relocation of second combat character over random city, or other place which is far away from the place of contact
2. setting property of SPECIAL to 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 after timeout 10minutes, character is not able to fight.

Is really difference if you fight with 2 or (3-7) and more combat characters.
Title: Re: For the thousand time...
Post by: Paladin on August 17, 2012, 12:40:40 pm
on 2. still AC troll wins
Title: Re: For the thousand time...
Post by: T-888 on August 17, 2012, 12:59:40 pm
My suggestion would be to make burst shots ignore AC - you just can't dodge all bullets.
And add -AC to ammo like rockets and grenades.

There is already -AC for ammunition, it's called AC modifier, though it's zero for half of the ammunition out there or set quite low.

edit:
Hmm interesting, maybe armor class could be balanced out mostly by adjusting ammunition modifiers or at least partially.

First of all, at most, there was only 2 waves of enemies last session unless some crazy preparations.

Let me see, from the community thoughts i've been playing some time with the biggest cheaters, abusers, hackers and what not they have been called, cool people actually, i remember only 1 wave of alts, rarely second that consisted of only few people in the best case scenario who actually waited those 3 minutes to log into another character upon dying. That timer was effective to prevent PvP going complete marbles, no matter what players say, proxies are not suitable for waves because all free proxies lag like very much and tend to crash frequently, second of all things considered those players who did break rules and did second waves were some small irrelevant cells who just best to ignore because they didn't spoil the gameplay for others in the grand scheme of things, hardly at all.
Title: Re: For the thousand time...
Post by: Swinglinered on August 18, 2012, 10:02:37 pm
There is already -AC for ammunition, it's called AC modifier, though it's zero for half of the ammunition out there or set quite low.

edit:
Hmm interesting, maybe armor class could be balanced out mostly by adjusting ammunition modifiers or at least partially.

I thought the AC (on trolls- not from armor) was from some sort of dodge ability- not actually dodging bullets as they come, but moving erratically to impede targeting. (Not literally onscreen, but as the underlying logic.)

So AP ammo should make no difference.

Title: Re: For the thousand time...
Post by: Ville on August 18, 2012, 10:08:04 pm
I thought the AC (on trolls- not from armor) was from some sort of dodge ability- not actually dodging bullets as they come, but moving erratically to impede targeting. (Not literally onscreen, but as the underlying logic.)

So AP ammo should make no difference.

AP ammo is -35% on damage resistance to your characters target, it does nothing on the targets armor class. The only weapon that does anything to armor class on its target is flamer fuel. Maybe there is other ammo that does - to armor class but it is small amount like -10 or -20 which doesn't make much difference.

Maybe a solution is not a nerf but give us certian weapons which are weak other wise in PvP that is good for killing AC characters? JHP ammo doesn't do shit these days maybe make this the anti amor class ammo? Maybe have the ability to counter measure the current state of AC would be another solution. Just an idea.
Title: Re: For the thousand time...
Post by: Virtu on August 19, 2012, 05:44:06 pm
I would suggest to make a special ninja suit.
Wearing it as armor AC = declared.
Without such a costume AC = AC / 2
Title: Re: For the thousand time...
Post by: S.T.A.L.K.E.R on August 19, 2012, 05:45:37 pm
I would suggest to make a special ninja suit.
Wearing it as armor AC = declared.
Without such a costume AC = AC / 2
It's called a bluesuit