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FOnline Development => 3D Development => Topic started by: LagMaster on February 16, 2011, 07:43:12 pm

Title: Questions and Answers 3D (read the first post before asking a question)
Post by: LagMaster on February 16, 2011, 07:43:12 pm
Feel free to ask your questions about the 3D development here: How to make 3D items, how to add certan things, how to make animations, etc.
Other 3D developers will answer you.
Check the 3D trackers (http://www.fo2238.fodev.net/wiki/index.php?title=Special%3ASearch&search=3d&go=%D0%9F%D0%B5%D1%80%D0%B5%D0%B9%D1%82%D0%B8) and FAQ before asking your question.

----------------------

Question: When we'll have the 3D Era up and running?
Answer: [http://fo2238.fodev.net/wiki/Soon] Soon[/url]

Question: Will there be such features like muzzle flash, rockets, laser beam introduced?  
Answer: Yes.

Question: Will NPC's be changed to 3D as well as the players?
Answer: Yes.  

Question: Will sitting, laying, crawling and other animations of that kind will be added?  
Answer: This will entirely depend on the will of the one who's using our work to set up a 3d.  

Question: Does 3D allows players to have dynamics bases? Such as adding new scenery to it (book shelves, cases etc)  
Answer: No it doesn't. The engine itself currently doesn't allow such feature as dynamic maps. So 3D have nothing to do with it.  

Question: Is the inventory icon will be 3D?
Answer: No, 3D is needed to make items visible in player hands and on the ground. Inventory icons will stay the same as usually.  

Question: Can a full screen, post-processing filter be used (bloom, ink, blur)?  
Answer: Yes.

Question: Is texture compression used? What kind?  
Answer: Most likely TGA file format would be used, because it have a lot of pros and almost none cons.  

Question: Is it possible get 3D Karpov models with all clothes into SDK?
Answer: Yes, you can download it here (http://fodev.net/forum/index.php?topic=14217.0).

Question: What is SDK?
Answer: Software Development Kit. It is a tool, which basically gives you everything needed to make your own server and game

Question: Will there be some kind of effect, which could pixelate the 3D models in-game, to make them look more like 2D sprite?
Answer: Probably. DirectX or shaders could be used for it, but it isn't implemented yet.

Question: Does the engine support 3D environments? To make the game completely like Van Burren
Answer: Yes, the engine does support this.

Question: Is all the game gonna go 3d or just part of it? Is 360 degree camera rotation will be added?  
Answer: No it isn't. Only critters, nothing more.

Question: Why 3D is needed? A good-ol 2D looks somehow better and I'm used to it.  
Answer: Because 3D is much easier to customize. Adding helmets, new clothes, having more variations in color (such as being able to play as a black skinned character) playing as a ghoul, super mutant, etc.

Question: Can I help with the 3D development?  
Answer: Every help is appreciated, no matter your skills. If you want to help, please post a message about it or send a PM to anyone of the 3D developers.  
Title: Re: Questions and Answers 3D (read the first post before asking a question)
Post by: SmartCheetah on February 16, 2011, 08:10:41 pm
is the hair stile made from a separate mesh, or you must make it with the head too?
Separate mesh. But as for now - someone said that we might use Van Buren hairstyles after making them compatible(positioning and stuff)
Not my kind of stuff so lets just wait with doing anything new in this matter.

@down: Good idea. So much people asking about things lately.
Title: Re: Questions and Answers 3D (read the first post before asking a question)
Post by: LagMaster on February 16, 2011, 08:15:01 pm
thank you...hmm, i think i will make this topic a 3D version of questions and answers
Title: Re: Questions and Answers 3D (read the first post before asking a question)
Post by: Verleyk on February 17, 2011, 04:11:35 pm
Anyone know or find a file that can import and / or export format .G3D on Blender?

Sorry if I speak bad English, I'm French.
Title: Re: Questions and Answers 3D (read the first post before asking a question)
Post by: Cryptopsy on February 18, 2011, 03:13:14 pm
Engine, we need to do stuff with the engine not the models.

So, inside the engine, seeing as that's where you're saying the muzzle flash would be, does that mean that's where the  alterations to things like missile flight and the laser beams would be?
Title: Re: Questions and Answers 3D (read the first post before asking a question)
Post by: Haraldx on February 18, 2011, 03:26:37 pm
I suppose so. The flame from rocket - particle effects. Blood - particle effects. Muzzle flash - particle effects. Atleast I'm pretty sure Lexx said so.

EDIT: I just found this to be wrong...
(http://img89.imageshack.us/img89/5474/wutrx.jpg) (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/89/wutrx.jpg/)
Title: Re: Questions and Answers 3D (read the first post before asking a question)
Post by: Cryptopsy on February 18, 2011, 04:28:26 pm
Okay. so is anyone going to correct the rocket's flight? it always seemed a little glitchy to me.

Seeing as we have all new 3d weapons to use, why not have new animations to go with the ammunition?
Title: Re: Questions and Answers 3D (read the first post before asking a question)
Post by: Haraldx on February 18, 2011, 05:08:09 pm
Animations for amunition? How the hell you mean that? And no - ammo and other stuff won't be 3D. There is no need for it.
Title: Re: Questions and Answers 3D (read the first post before asking a question)
Post by: Cryptopsy on February 18, 2011, 05:22:53 pm
Like muzzle flash, man. Jesus.

New question: When are they looking at having the 3D Era up and running?
Title: Re: Questions and Answers 3D (read the first post before asking a question)
Post by: SmartCheetah on February 18, 2011, 05:57:23 pm
Never ever ask "When". The only correct answer is "When it's done and ready".
I'm not gonna post that "soon" thing, 'couse it might not be "soon" :P
Title: Re: Questions and Answers 3D (read the first post before asking a question)
Post by: Haraldx on February 18, 2011, 06:10:48 pm
Like muzzle flash, man. Jesus.
1. Low priority
2. Almost no use
3. Muzzle flashes will be quite small detail (unless someone is actually going to make it huge) and therefore, different muzzle flash isn't necessary.
Title: Re: Questions and Answers 3D (read the first post before asking a question)
Post by: Cryptopsy on February 18, 2011, 06:11:28 pm
Doesn't it look funny to anyone else when a 3D model is standing near a 2D NPC? Especially with the Texture differences, the overall dimensions, the lack of shadowing for the 3D model...

In my honest opinion, the 3D models kind of seem like overkill by comparison to NPCs. What will they look like if all the critters are also left in 2D?

(http://i1186.photobucket.com/albums/z367/keepinitwolf/problems.gif)

1. Low priority
2. Almost no use
3. Muzzle flashes will be quite small detail (unless someone is actually going to make it huge) and therefore, different muzzle flash isn't necessary.

If you would read back, I was referring to the rockets and laser beams, etc. Things like that. They would look pretty dumb having a 2d rocket with pixelated flame coming out of a 3D rocket launcher with a 3D character doing the shooting, now wouldnt it?
Title: Re: Questions and Answers 3D (read the first post before asking a question)
Post by: Haraldx on February 18, 2011, 06:15:48 pm
Doesn't it look funny to anyone else when a 3D model is standing near a 2D NPC? Especially with the Texture differences, the overall dimensions, the lack of shadowing for the 3D model...

In my honest opinion, the 3D models kind of seem like overkill by comparison to NPCs. What will they look like if all the critters are also left in 2D?

(http://i1186.photobucket.com/albums/z367/keepinitwolf/problems.gif)
That's an old screen. ALL human models will be 3D. That screen uses Van Burens' models. The models have shadows - notice that the 3D guy has a table near him which makes the shadow invisible. Your post is invalid and contains problems that are being solved already (missing textures etc.)
If you would read back, I was referring to the rockets and laser beams, etc. Things like that. They would look pretty dumb having a 2d rocket with pixelated flame coming out of a 3D rocket launcher with a 3D character doing the shooting, now wouldnt it?
Oh... umm... I don't know, ask Lexx  ;D
Title: Re: Questions and Answers 3D (read the first post before asking a question)
Post by: Cryptopsy on February 18, 2011, 06:21:43 pm
Your post is invalid and contains problems

Sorry, dad. Jesus Christ.

Anyways, I havent seen anywhere where anyone has made a 3D model of any citizens. I havent seen any doctors or townspeople or anything like that; kids... etc.

Also, what about critters?
Title: Re: Questions and Answers 3D (read the first post before asking a question)
Post by: Haraldx on February 18, 2011, 06:23:39 pm
I have a better idea. Use the FAQ topic, this one is getting too much cluttered.
Title: Re: Questions and Answers 3D (read the first post before asking a question)
Post by: Izual on February 18, 2011, 06:25:19 pm
Also use this one (http://fodev.net/forum/index.php?topic=13398.0), thanks.
Title: Re: Questions and Answers 3D (read the first post before asking a question)
Post by: Cryptopsy on February 18, 2011, 06:29:54 pm
I have a better idea. Use the FAQ topic, this one is getting too much cluttered.

No. Because I dont see how asking about 3D models is unrelated to "3D Models Development."

And I was asking about critters other than Player Characters, such as Traders, Doctors, Vault Suit Wearers, etc...
Title: Re: Questions and Answers 3D (read the first post before asking a question)
Post by: Izual on February 18, 2011, 06:32:45 pm
Yes. Cryptopsy, second warning in three days...
Title: Re: Questions and Answers 3D (read the first post before asking a question)
Post by: Cryptopsy on February 18, 2011, 06:37:37 pm
Yes. Cryptopsy, second warning in three days...

You're on an Internet powertrip.

You warned me for not using a search function last time.

Now you warn me for speaking of 3D modeling in a 3D modeling thread? Dude. CHILL OUT. It's a FOnline forum, not the Third Reich.
Title: Re: Questions and Answers 3D (read the first post before asking a question)
Post by: Lexx on February 18, 2011, 06:45:08 pm
Anyways, I havent seen anywhere where anyone has made a 3D model of any citizens. I havent seen any doctors or townspeople or anything like that; kids... etc.

It's because even though the progress that has been done in the last days and weeks is really great, we are still far away from getting into the "all done"-phase. There is still a lot missing, which also covers the generic townspeople, animations for them, clothes for them and so on.
Title: Re: Questions and Answers 3D (read the first post before asking a question)
Post by: Cryptopsy on February 18, 2011, 06:49:26 pm
Thank you SO much Lexx for that prompt, professional answer.

Lexx, I was also told to direct another question I had towards you.

Now, as far as 3D weapons goes, the ones we have so far are great. But what about the animations for such active rounds as rockets, laser beams or anything else that portrays as a projectile in the form of fired ammunition. Are these (rockets and laser beams) going to have a new animation as well as a 3D image to travel across the screen? Because a 2D rocket with pixelated smoke and fire would look sort of silly coming from a 3D rocket launcher with a 3D character sprite firing it, right?
Title: Re: Questions and Answers 3D (read the first post before asking a question)
Post by: Lexx on February 18, 2011, 06:51:00 pm
Don't know. Rocket is flying pretty fast and you can't really see it already right now. So I'd say if at all, this stuff has very low priority in the moment.
Title: Re: Questions and Answers 3D (read the first post before asking a question)
Post by: Cryptopsy on February 18, 2011, 06:51:47 pm
Understood. Just wanted to know. Thanks for the answers.
Title: Re: Questions and Answers 3D (read the first post before asking a question)
Post by: Izual on February 18, 2011, 07:16:00 pm
You're on an Internet powertrip.
You warned me for not using a search function last time.
Now you warn me for speaking of 3D modeling in a 3D modeling thread? Dude. CHILL OUT. It's a FOnline forum, not the Third Reich.
It is not a coincidence if Gray did warn you in another thread. But maybe we are both in a "fonline powertrip". Now, next time you want to talk directly to me you can send me a PM.
Title: Re: Questions and Answers 3D (read the first post before asking a question)
Post by: LagMaster on February 18, 2011, 09:02:46 pm
i can't save with 3Ds Max 2009 in .obj, only in .max and .chr, what to chose?
Title: Re: Questions and Answers 3D (read the first post before asking a question)
Post by: Graf on February 18, 2011, 09:06:29 pm
i can't save with 3Ds Max 2009 in .obj, only in .max and .chr, what to chose?
Don't SAVE, use export instead.
Title: Re: Questions and Answers 3D (read the first post before asking a question)
Post by: LagMaster on February 18, 2011, 09:07:47 pm
Don't SAVE, use export instead.
how?
Title: Re: Questions and Answers 3D (read the first post before asking a question)
Post by: Gray on February 18, 2011, 10:35:59 pm
how?
Look down under the "save". There is an "export" menu.
Title: Re: Questions and Answers 3D (read the first post before asking a question)
Post by: Jimmy BoyX on February 19, 2011, 10:21:31 am
When Karpov's model will done? How many animations still needed to be done? When can we play in SDK with it?

down: So when? 1-2 months?
Title: Re: Questions and Answers 3D (read the first post before asking a question)
Post by: Haraldx on February 19, 2011, 10:22:15 am
When Karpov's model will done? How many animations still needed to be done? When can we play in SDK with it?
When it's done.

What's with the .mtl extension? I made a .obj file to send to LagMaster, but somekind of .mtl was made too...
Title: Re: Questions and Answers 3D (read the first post before asking a question)
Post by: Luther Blissett on February 19, 2011, 03:03:00 pm
The .mtl file is a separate material file, as (I think) the .obj doesn't contain material data. Unless you're using special settings for materials, it can probably be ignored. I don't know if the game engine responds to material files or not, or if everything's just using a default.
Title: Re: Questions and Answers 3D (read the first post before asking a question)
Post by: TheGreenHand on February 19, 2011, 08:06:48 pm
So the whole customization thing is great, but we all know the best reason to convert our 2D sprites into 3D... Sitting Down!

So, will it be possible?  One day, will I walk into NCR to see three guys sitting around an old table in the bazaar, or will they always be standing there, just watching me?

I would love to be able to sit in a chair around the bar at a base.
Title: Re: Questions and Answers 3D (read the first post before asking a question)
Post by: Lexx on February 19, 2011, 08:48:03 pm
Possible, with new scenery stuff. But doing this in NCR is like sitting down in Baghdad and waiting for a suicide bomber.
Title: Re: Questions and Answers 3D (read the first post before asking a question)
Post by: TheGreenHand on February 19, 2011, 09:43:55 pm
Possible, with new scenery stuff. But doing this in NCR is like sitting down in Baghdad and waiting for a suicide bomber.

Haha, well sure.  That leads me to another question.  Will 3D ever lead to dynamic bases?  I know people have been wanting to "upgrade" storage and things at bases.
Title: Re: Questions and Answers 3D (read the first post before asking a question)
Post by: Lexx on February 19, 2011, 10:59:04 pm
No, 3d has nothing to do with "dynamit bases."
Title: Re: Questions and Answers 3D (read the first post before asking a question)
Post by: Mr_Gazo on February 20, 2011, 11:16:46 am
stupid question, but whether the inventory icon will be 3D?
Title: Re: Questions and Answers 3D (read the first post before asking a question)
Post by: pistacja on February 20, 2011, 11:21:29 am
Just a word on the muzzle flash.
(http://img442.imageshack.us/img442/5479/flashd.gif)
This is what's called in the industry a billboard effect. One quad always facing the camera, but since the camera is always fixed in one position there is no point in that. It's just a "spirit".  
I don't see any need for true particle effects (that is with a physical simulation, collisions, affected by wind etc) just some pre-baked images.  
Title: Re: Questions and Answers 3D (read the first post before asking a question)
Post by: Gray on February 20, 2011, 12:09:25 pm
stupid question, but whether the inventory icon will be 3D?
No.
Just a word on the muzzle flash.
(http://img442.imageshack.us/img442/5479/flashd.gif)
This is what's called in the industry a billboard effect. One quad always facing the camera, but since the camera is always fixed in one position there is no point in that. It's just a "spirit".  
I don't see any need for true particle effects (that is with a physical simulation, collisions, affected by wind etc) just some pre-baked images.  
I was thinking about that. It's really a good solution. There is no need for particle effect, but character flash-lighting is still needed.
Title: Re: Questions and Answers 3D (read the first post before asking a question)
Post by: pistacja on February 20, 2011, 12:28:06 pm
No.I was thinking about that. It's really a good solution. There is no need for particle effect, but character flash-lighting is still needed.

Can't that be made with actual dynamic lights?
Title: Re: Questions and Answers 3D (read the first post before asking a question)
Post by: Gray on February 20, 2011, 01:38:46 pm
Can't that be made with actual dynamic lights?
It should be
Title: Re: Questions and Answers 3D (read the first post before asking a question)
Post by: LagMaster on February 20, 2011, 07:45:38 pm
how can we make an UV map in 3Ds Max 2009 and 2010?
Title: Re: Questions and Answers 3D (read the first post before asking a question)
Post by: Gray on February 20, 2011, 08:06:03 pm
how can we make an UV map in 3Ds Max 2009 and 2010?
By "Unwrap UVW" modifier.
Title: Re: Questions and Answers 3D (read the first post before asking a question)
Post by: LagMaster on February 20, 2011, 08:10:38 pm
tnx, and in Wings 3D?
Title: Re: Questions and Answers 3D (read the first post before asking a question)
Post by: Luther Blissett on February 20, 2011, 08:33:51 pm
Select object, Right click > .UV Mapping
Title: Re: Questions and Answers 3D (read the first post before asking a question)
Post by: LagMaster on February 20, 2011, 08:37:31 pm
tnx
Title: Re: Questions and Answers 3D (read the first post before asking a question)
Post by: Alvarez on February 21, 2011, 09:21:05 am
What do you think about projection painting compared to painting on a unwrapped texture?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=maJj6sLOiKM&feature=related

This method seems so easy and less abstract compared to UV unwrapping, but are there any catches?

I was thinking about taking pictures the different axis from the untextured mesh, sketch a texture on them and projectionpaint it back.
Title: Re: Questions and Answers 3D (read the first post before asking a question)
Post by: Luther Blissett on February 21, 2011, 11:51:13 am
I suppose the main one is lack of painting tools, layers and the ability to move those layers about - though if you got a high-end model painting program, that might not be a problem - but in the free / open source level applications, you're currently looking at little more than "mspaint" style painting tools only. What does work nicely though, is to unwrap the model normally, then 3D paint onto the model to mark out seams and other such areas, then photoshop the remainder of the flat texture to finish everything off - particularly useful for drawing straight lines around a round object, where the front and back aren't next to each other on the texture.

Your suggestion of working from different axis, painting them, then reattaching them would work on the whole, but you'd have some problems with interior sections (i.e. a person viewed along x axis would have a problem with painting the inside of legs and arms). You could however get 3/4 of it done, then finish those bits off "traditionally".
Title: Re: Questions and Answers 3D (read the first post before asking a question)
Post by: pistacja on February 23, 2011, 12:38:49 pm
Some random questions.
-is there room in the rendering pipeline for shaders(per pixel ligth, shine, glow, normal maps)?
-can a full screen, post-processing filter be used (bloom,  ink, blur)?
-is texture compression used? What kind?
-what is the prefered image format(tga, png, dds...)?
-what about alpha? 1 bit (black-white), 4 bit, 8 bit (256 grayscale) or none at all? In what mode is it used? Would two transparent layers be correcty visible?
-how would animated particle-like effects work? One image-one file, all images side by side in one file (atlas), or a gif-like format from fallout?

I also have some nice explosions that I can give away, are there any plans to remake the original blasts?

   
Title: Re: Questions and Answers 3D (read the first post before asking a question)
Post by: Lexx on February 23, 2011, 12:42:10 pm
Quote
-can a full screen, post-processing filter be used (bloom,  ink, blur)?

Yes.

Quote
I also have some nice explosions that I can give away, are there any plans to remake the original blasts?

Not that I know of any. At least not officially-- we want to keep the game to look like the original.
Title: Re: Questions and Answers 3D (read the first post before asking a question)
Post by: Karpov on February 23, 2011, 03:07:22 pm
Some random questions.
-is there room in the rendering pipeline for shaders(per pixel ligth, shine, glow, normal maps)?
-can a full screen, post-processing filter be used (bloom,  ink, blur)?
-is texture compression used? What kind?
-what is the prefered image format(tga, png, dds...)?
-what about alpha? 1 bit (black-white), 4 bit, 8 bit (256 grayscale) or none at all? In what mode is it used? Would two transparent layers be correcty visible?
-how would animated particle-like effects work? One image-one file, all images side by side in one file (atlas), or a gif-like format from fallout?

I also have some nice explosions that I can give away, are there any plans to remake the original blasts?

   

As far as I know, the game can use .fx shader files, there are some Default .fx files in the data/effects folder. But I don't know of anyone with knowledge of HLSL, and I am afraid not every .fx works.
About textures: since the image size is going to be very small, we wont need MIPmaps. I used jpg, tga, and png. All three worked fine, but I think JPG is the most compressed format, so it would be a good choice when we have many of them.
Title: Re: Questions and Answers 3D (read the first post before asking a question)
Post by: pistacja on February 23, 2011, 03:37:25 pm
JPEG only saves space on the disc, in memory it take just as much ram as a uncompressed BMP (8 bit per channel x texture resolution, something like 0.7 MB for a 512x512 texture).  But there's a compression algorithm that uses the gpu hardware to decompress images on the fly from ram, so a texture can be stored (and send) to the gpu compressed. It can save (in theory) 3/4 to 7/8 of total memory used by textures... but the most popular format (dds) also stores mip-maps so the save on memory is not that big.
Title: Re: Questions and Answers 3D (read the first post before asking a question)
Post by: Karpov on February 23, 2011, 03:58:16 pm
I didn't know that. so...you think dds would be the best choice? what file size does it have compared to the JPG? let's say, a 256x256 texture.  Good info.  8)
Title: Re: Questions and Answers 3D (read the first post before asking a question)
Post by: pistacja on February 23, 2011, 04:30:01 pm
This is the best info I found:
http://forums.relicnews.com/showthread.php?62051-Decal-Texture-study-TGA-vs-DXT3-vs-DXT5

256 * 256:
DXT: 85.4K
TGA: 256K
Title: Re: Questions and Answers 3D (read the first post before asking a question)
Post by: Luther Blissett on February 23, 2011, 05:20:22 pm
It might depend on the engine, and this info might be a few years old now (and might not be 100% accurate) :

DDS - small size on disc, small size in memory
PNG - small size on disc, normal size in memory
TGA - large size on disc, normal size in memory
JPG - small size on disc, large size in memory, no alpha channel
BMP - large size on disc, normal size in memory, no alpha channel

I can't remember any specific numbers though - but something about graphics cards could read DDS without needing to uncompress it, which meant it used a lot less memory in game.

Within DDS :
DXT1 - alpha on /off (100% or 0% solid - can't have 50% or any other number)
DXT3 - alpha variable (100 - 0% solid - i.e. 50% here, 30% there is okay)
DXT5 - alpha variable (100 - 0% solid - i.e. 50% here, 30% there is okay)

I can't remember the difference between dxt3 and dxt5, or if there are other (or newer) dxt numbers available.
[edit] In pistacja's link above, it shows dxt5 has a smoother alpha

I don't know if you'll need alpha channels, or if the engine supports it even. Could it be useful for death animations (i.e. a hole shot in the chest), or having a damaged / blood layer on the models to show injury?

Title: Re: Questions and Answers 3D (read the first post before asking a question)
Post by: Jimmy BoyX on February 23, 2011, 09:01:23 pm
Sorry for annoying question but how many animations are done? How many are making?
Title: Re: Questions and Answers 3D (read the first post before asking a question)
Post by: Karpov on February 24, 2011, 12:18:45 am
Sorry for annoying question but how many animations are done? How many are making?

The animations I need are all the Dodge animations. I have it for unarmed and knife already. I disabled the Running, using, and picking up with weapon in hand, just like in the original game, for now of course. I won't make additional or special death animations yet. The main goal now is make it playable, nothing missing but nothing added either. When I'm done with all anims, I will create a full animation demo. That way I can see, hear opinions, and correct all the stuff I need to before converting them to the female structure.
Oh, also reload animations need to be done. Right now I'm using the same animations for Shoot and Reload.
Title: Re: Questions and Answers 3D (read the first post before asking a question)
Post by: Lexx on February 24, 2011, 12:25:03 am
Quote
I disabled the Running, using, and picking up with weapon in hand, just like in the original game, for now of course.

To be honest, I don't even think it's bad. Running with guns and stuff will need a lot more attention to animation and I don't really think it's that much worth to spend time on it right now. Even weapons visible on back - while interesting first - might be better not to be visible. At least that's my opinion on this.
Title: Re: Questions and Answers 3D (read the first post before asking a question)
Post by: Eternauta on February 24, 2011, 12:25:39 am
I won't make additional or special death animations yet.

Well when death animations start being worked on, please don't haunt us with a new "hole in torso" animation for a eyeshot death just like in the original games :P

Anyway, congratulations, thank you and keep it up! :)
Title: Re: Questions and Answers 3D (read the first post before asking a question)
Post by: Crazy on February 24, 2011, 01:01:43 am
Well when death animations start being worked on, please don't haunt us with a new "hole in torso" animation for a eyeshot death just like in the original games :P

We need a hole in torso, as well as brain explosion.
Title: Re: Questions and Answers 3D (read the first post before asking a question)
Post by: Gray on February 24, 2011, 01:34:48 am
To be honest, I don't even think it's bad. Running with guns and stuff will need a lot more attention to animation and I don't really think it's that much worth to spend time on it right now. Even weapons visible on back - while interesting first - might be better not to be visible. At least that's my opinion on this.
Although running with gun is an individual animation, the weapon on the back is just an attached object. It's not even the similar things. Running with gun requires as many animation sets as there are different weapon holding types. Weapon on the back requires almost nothing.
Title: Re: Questions and Answers 3D (read the first post before asking a question)
Post by: Lexx on February 24, 2011, 01:37:29 am
Yes, but it looks strange imo. Some weapons are ok, like spear, etc. But the minigun and such... it just looks strange. I personally would keep it without any weapons on the bag at all.
Title: Re: Questions and Answers 3D (read the first post before asking a question)
Post by: Gray on February 24, 2011, 01:58:58 am
Well, it need some attention anyway, maybe different pivot for some unusual weapon like minigun. But it is not as demanding as animations, that I was talking about.
Title: Re: Questions and Answers 3D (read the first post before asking a question)
Post by: Eternauta on February 24, 2011, 03:05:57 am
We need a hole in torso, as well as brain explosion.

Hole in torso is ok if you actually get hit in the torso, but not if you suffer a critical shot in your eyes, which is what happened in the original Fallout games.

I'm not saying "no hole in torso animation" but "no hole in torso animation when hit in the eyes". There is a difference.
Title: Re: Questions and Answers 3D (read the first post before asking a question)
Post by: Karpov on February 24, 2011, 03:31:13 am
I can choose which weapons are to be visible on the back. Or I can deactivate it entirely, but it still looks weird, just like the original minigun animation with the "Magical Pocket". Maybe it is just because we are used to it that it does not seem strange. I think I'm already getting used to this 3D model, that's why I come here and ask for opinions.
 In any case, since the weapon attachments configurations are handled by a text file, it could be easily deactivated, as an option in the config tool.
Title: Re: Questions and Answers 3D (read the first post before asking a question)
Post by: Graf on February 24, 2011, 09:37:35 am
Hole in torso is ok if you actually get hit in the torso, but not if you suffer a critical shot in your eyes, which is what happened in the original Fallout games.
It isn't only happens in original Fallout games. Yesterday, while playing FNV I've mentioned the same thing (shooting torso causes brain explosion etc.). So, I'd prefer to leave it as it is, and consider it a legacy of the original.
Title: Re: Questions and Answers 3D (read the first post before asking a question)
Post by: Lexx on February 24, 2011, 11:09:19 am
Quote
while playing FNV I've mentioned the same thing (shooting torso causes brain explosion etc.)

I think you accidentally hit the head then, because else it does not happen in the game.

About weapons on back: Yes, as everything is in a file on clients side, modifications of it are no problem.
Title: Re: Questions and Answers 3D (read the first post before asking a question)
Post by: pistacja on February 24, 2011, 12:16:34 pm
A question to 3ds max users:

Had anyone problems with render to texture where some parts just don't get rendered?
Its not the case where images don't get saved when using mentalray, these are not missed rays or a bad cage, just whole uv islands rendered pitch black.

I have this problem with Kaprovs mesh and for the love of God, can't fix it. Seting identical material ID, smoth grups, mapping channels or welding verts has no visible effect. 
Title: Re: Questions and Answers 3D (read the first post before asking a question)
Post by: Graf on February 24, 2011, 01:28:34 pm
I think you accidentally hit the head then, because else it does not happen in the game.
I'm pretty sure I didn't. Coz it was rather a groin shot, than a torso (I mean bottom part of torso). Maybe there's still a small chace to get such effect just like in the original games?
Title: Re: Questions and Answers 3D (read the first post before asking a question)
Post by: Surf on February 24, 2011, 02:07:35 pm
You probably have the Bloody Mess Perk (yes, Perk in NV) which causes random libs to explode/get removed when getting shot.
Title: Re: Questions and Answers 3D (read the first post before asking a question)
Post by: barter1113 on February 24, 2011, 02:52:48 pm
Is it possible get 3D Karpov models with all clothes into SDK? When will it be implement into SDK?
Title: Re: Questions and Answers 3D (read the first post before asking a question)
Post by: SmartCheetah on February 24, 2011, 03:32:23 pm
Is it possible get 3D Karpov models with all clothes into SDK? When will it be implement into SDK?
It is possible. It will be implemented when it's done, but not 100%sure.
Title: Re: Questions and Answers 3D (read the first post before asking a question)
Post by: Alvarez on February 25, 2011, 11:13:29 am
Where do you set your seams for UV usually on human mesh?
Title: Re: Questions and Answers 3D (read the first post before asking a question)
Post by: pistacja on February 25, 2011, 01:04:07 pm
Where do you set your seams for UV usually on human mesh?
From what I know the most popular layout is a pelt with cut hands, feet and head. The seams go down the spine on the inside of legs, the arms have the seam on the uper side. The head has a seam on the back if the face will be animated then the lips are cut to have a hole. Hands (and feet) are just planar from top and bottom and joint on the outside (by the little finger) for hi-poly every finger is unwraped.

The model we use is cut in the waist, legs and arms are also cut. The torso has a seam on one side (the other is connected to the back).

The rule of thumb is to put seams where natural seams on clothin appear (best for cylinder-like geometry mapped independent ) or to have as little seams as you can (pelt).
Title: Re: Questions and Answers 3D (read the first post before asking a question)
Post by: Opera on February 25, 2011, 03:17:29 pm
Will there be some kind of effect / layer or what ever it is called which could pixelate the 3D models in-game? Just to make them look more like 2D sprites.
Title: Re: Questions and Answers 3D (read the first post before asking a question)
Post by: Karpov on February 25, 2011, 04:49:07 pm
Will there be some kind of effect / layer or what ever it is called which could pixelate the 3D models in-game? Just to make them look more like 2D sprites.

Perhaps, if someone knows about Shader language. I hope we can do anything about it sometime, because there are many other useful effects besides postprocessing, like alpha layers, or specularity.
Title: Re: Questions and Answers 3D (read the first post before asking a question)
Post by: Cryptopsy on February 26, 2011, 04:06:06 am
Is it possible get 3D Karpov models with all clothes into SDK? When will it be implement into SDK?

What is SDK?
Title: Re: Questions and Answers 3D (read the first post before asking a question)
Post by: LagMaster on February 26, 2011, 08:19:44 am
What is SDK?
server development kit or something
it basicly gives you all the tools needed to make your own server
Title: Re: Questions and Answers 3D (read the first post before asking a question)
Post by: Haraldx on February 26, 2011, 10:49:21 am
server software development kit or something
it basicly gives you all the tools needed to make your own server and game
Title: Re: Questions and Answers 3D (read the first post before asking a question)
Post by: Cryptopsy on March 06, 2011, 03:29:37 pm
NEW QUESTION:

In order for these 3D models to become in effect, will a wipe be necessary or just a HUGE update?
Title: Re: Questions and Answers 3D (read the first post before asking a question)
Post by: Crazy on March 06, 2011, 03:32:43 pm
NEW QUESTION:

In order for these 3D models to become in effect, will a wipe be necessary or just a HUGE update?

Like we will need to recreate our chars (to be able to customize them), I guess there will be a wipe.
Title: Re: Questions and Answers 3D (read the first post before asking a question)
Post by: Cryptopsy on March 06, 2011, 03:44:52 pm
Like we will need to recreate our chars (to be able to customize them), I guess there will be a wipe.

Makes sense. Just sucks that we cant keep what we've worked for and have one chance to "re-customize" our character. haha Or get a makeover from certain places like in Fallout 3 or New Vegas.
Title: Re: Questions and Answers 3D (read the first post before asking a question)
Post by: pistacja on March 07, 2011, 04:51:33 pm
I've got a tricky question.

The way I understand it the armour mesh is attached to a base body mesh, so the armour parts of a armour are used and the cloths are from the base mesh, right?

If that is true, why are there pants (and arms?) on the texture for the metal armour? The whole texture is 256x256 but only about 86x176 pixels(~23%) are used for the armour.
Title: Re: Questions and Answers 3D (read the first post before asking a question)
Post by: Johnnybravo on March 07, 2011, 09:12:35 pm
Perhaps, if someone knows about Shader language. I hope we can do anything about it sometime, because there are many other useful effects besides postprocessing, like alpha layers, or specularity.
It'd look like censor stuff :>

Writting some programs should be a way to go, even though I can imagine some people having problems with their hw not doing well or handling only fixed stuff.
Also alpha is a little more trickier, because for good transparency you need to depthsort stuff first.
Anyway without specular term, all metal and power armors will look like (excuse me) shit.
Title: Re: Questions and Answers 3D (read the first post before asking a question)
Post by: Karpov on March 08, 2011, 12:52:06 am
Let's see if I understood your question pistacja. Textures are layered, first Layer is the skin tone, without any clothes. Adding a second layer on top of that, will change the texture to the one that I choose for that layer, but it will only apply to the parts I select. I divided the model into 9 different subsets for this purpose, so I just tell the game to add a certain texture to the chest, another texture to the legs, and none for the arms.

And yes, HLSL is heavy stuff, moslty programming.

OK, reading back what you wrote pistacja, I get what you mean. Those textures were from Van Buren, Gray used them as a base, and he even used it for the pants in the armor, but I deleted those and the texture is not used anymore. A shame because they were good pants  :). With the new combat armor textures I made a different layout, put all in one file and erased the parts that were not needed.
Title: Re: Questions and Answers 3D (read the first post before asking a question)
Post by: SIGISMUND on March 19, 2011, 09:28:37 am
Where can I get a UV mapping tutorial for Wings? I haven't found any on the internet.....
Title: Re: Questions and Answers 3D (read the first post before asking a question)
Post by: Haraldx on March 19, 2011, 10:20:58 am
I found this one nice http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VXSu4dI-R3g

Also, if you want, I can make a tutorial, I'm bored anyway.

I also found out many stuff like edge loop select and other stuff, great vid too. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wrV_YFnOGzU&feature=related
Title: Re: Questions and Answers 3D (read the first post before asking a question)
Post by: SIGISMUND on March 19, 2011, 11:02:16 pm
Sure man if you got the time you should defenetly write one ;)
Title: Re: Questions and Answers 3D (read the first post before asking a question)
Post by: Jotisz on March 20, 2011, 07:16:41 am
I seccond that wings is real good and easy I'm sure if you write a tutorial Haraldx the you surely increase the potential number of the people who could work on the 3d models. I will look forward to your tutorial tough I mainly use blender but sometimes I go back and play around with wings too.
Title: Re: Questions and Answers 3D (read the first post before asking a question)
Post by: Johnnybravo on March 21, 2011, 06:51:41 pm
Is anyone working on specular lighting and targeting contours? ( with all due respect, releasing anything without them, would be really letdown, curently models look way too mat and bring ingame, unlike well rendered sprites )
Also are 3d shadows going to be transparent (or even soft)? - Shadowmaps would be really cheap for fonline, and in past decade they've been used in numerous RTS titles.
Title: Re: Questions and Answers 3D (read the first post before asking a question)
Post by: Jotisz on March 23, 2011, 03:37:22 pm
I don't really know how it will be but creating sprite like textures not that hard the thing that needed is a big texture with some noise resized to under 100x100 the smaller it is the more distorted it became and finally it gives a similar look to old 2d games also its possible to create the textures at 50x50 that way they can be painted like sprites too though I personally find the new models good as they are.
Title: Re: Questions and Answers 3D (read the first post before asking a question)
Post by: Graf on March 23, 2011, 08:35:42 pm
Is anyone working on specular lighting and targeting contours?
Do you mean something like that?
(http://s013.radikal.ru/i325/1101/16/8596ae683efe.jpg)
Title: Re: Questions and Answers 3D (read the first post before asking a question)
Post by: Johnnybravo on March 24, 2011, 12:45:27 am
I don't know, would be better notable in motion.
But yeah, this looks much better even it's a little overdone.

Every metalic and ceramic surface will need it however to look like original sprites, and I'm not exactly sure right now, but I think that ambient should be toned down significaly.
Title: Re: Questions and Answers 3D (read the first post before asking a question)
Post by: Lexx on March 24, 2011, 09:13:41 am
At least the enclave power armor will need it to look less like made of generic metal and more like made of some high-tech material.
Title: Re: Questions and Answers 3D (read the first post before asking a question)
Post by: pistacja on March 24, 2011, 10:20:25 am
Will that work with per pixel lights, a bloom effect or some hybrid (render the scene to a off screen buffer with only specular and combine with the rest)?

Shaders are needed for that and that is a big change in the minimum hardware needed.

...if shaders would be employed then why stop here? Normal and paralax bump mapping, soft shadows, qube maps, volumetric lights, SSAO GI, SSS... or maybe not?
Title: Re: Questions and Answers 3D (read the first post before asking a question)
Post by: Johnnybravo on March 24, 2011, 11:48:02 am
Nah you just add view direction to light direction (both are static infact, so this is not even needed right now, but i'd not be surprised if dynamic lights appeared on models anytime soon) and dotproduct it with normal.
You'll then pass it to PS and multiply either specular texture or just white with it.
Title: Re: Questions and Answers 3D (read the first post before asking a question)
Post by: Haraldx on March 24, 2011, 11:58:56 am
Normal and paralax bump mapping...

Stopped reading here. Bump mapping is evil!!! It eats very much of your computer resources, it requires a whole lot of time to code in, it won't be noticabble on such small models, and it would be easier to actually make that small bump in the model itself, as it would require less computer resources and wouldn't take so long. Besides, bump mapping needs other shader features, it cannot work if there is no specual lighting for example. NO, NO and a huge NO again!
Title: Re: Questions and Answers 3D (read the first post before asking a question)
Post by: Johnnybravo on March 24, 2011, 12:13:47 pm
Stopped reading here. Bump mapping is evil!!! It eats very much of your computer resources, it requires a whole lot of time to code in, it won't be noticabble on such small models, and it would be easier to actually make that small bump in the model itself, as it would require less computer resources and wouldn't take so long. Besides, bump mapping needs other shader features, it cannot work if there is no specual lighting for example. NO, NO and a huge NO again!
No it does not. And TBH normals should be made for PA/APA, because they can really make a difference there. Deathclaw and other big critters might have it as well. And it'd definetly be must-have for supermutants if they are in 3D, because of their skin requiring so.
You can easily make 2 shaders here so switching wouldn't be problem at all.
Quote
on such small models
Actually, the effect is done for every pixel, so obviously less pixels there are the faster it is.
Title: Re: Questions and Answers 3D (read the first post before asking a question)
Post by: Lexx on March 24, 2011, 02:54:52 pm
Our target is to make the models look like their original 2d paragons, nothing more. We don't aim for Crysis-like graphics.
Title: Re: Questions and Answers 3D (read the first post before asking a question)
Post by: SIGISMUND on March 24, 2011, 07:07:02 pm
I was thinking about 3D eviorments...does the engine support this? To make the game completly like van burren
Title: Re: Questions and Answers 3D (read the first post before asking a question)
Post by: Lexx on March 24, 2011, 07:20:05 pm
Quote
I was thinking about 3D eviorments...does the engine support this?

Yes, the engine does support this. But we aren't going to add 3d scenery.
Title: Re: Questions and Answers 3D (read the first post before asking a question)
Post by: LagMaster on March 24, 2011, 09:18:35 pm
Yes, the engine does support this. But we aren't going to add 3d scenery.
because it will probably be a hell lot Laggy

but in anycase, we can make 3D deco with UDK, no?
Title: Re: Questions and Answers 3D (read the first post before asking a question)
Post by: Lexx on March 24, 2011, 09:20:49 pm
Quote
because it will probably be a hell lot Laggy

No. Because it will most likely not look like the original game.
Title: Re: Questions and Answers 3D (read the first post before asking a question)
Post by: Haraldx on March 24, 2011, 09:35:33 pm
UDK?

Just to make sure you make your facts right.
UDK stands for Unreal Developement Kit, namely for Unreal Engine 3.
SDK stands for Software (sometimes Server) Developement Kit, namely for FOnline and hell lot of other stuff.
Title: Re: Questions and Answers 3D (read the first post before asking a question)
Post by: Crazy on March 24, 2011, 09:44:50 pm
IIRC Lagmaster use Udk to make his 3D models.
Title: Re: Questions and Answers 3D (read the first post before asking a question)
Post by: Haraldx on March 24, 2011, 09:57:13 pm
IIRC Lagmaster use Udk to make his 3D models.
Been with him on Skype, using screen share, never seen him use it, I've seen him using 3DMax tho... Well, I think it was 3DMax...
Title: Re: Questions and Answers 3D (read the first post before asking a question)
Post by: SIGISMUND on March 24, 2011, 10:05:03 pm
But I guess that will require a special mapper yes?
The FOnline engine is based on van buren engines yes?
Title: Re: Questions and Answers 3D (read the first post before asking a question)
Post by: Crazy on March 24, 2011, 10:24:48 pm
But I guess that will require a special mapper yes?

No

The FOnline engine is based on van buren engines yes?

No
Title: Re: Questions and Answers 3D (read the first post before asking a question)
Post by: Haraldx on March 25, 2011, 10:52:52 am
Actually if we are talking about stuff like full3D world - 360 camera, zooming, camera pitching and such like stuff, then yes, we would need a little upgrade to the engine/mapper.
The FOnline engine is based on van buren engines yes?
Where in the hell did you get that information? FOnline engine is based on nothing, it's made from scratch.
Title: Re: Questions and Answers 3D (read the first post before asking a question)
Post by: LagMaster on March 25, 2011, 01:45:12 pm
Been with him on Skype, using screen share, never seen him use it, I've seen him using 3DMax tho... Well, I think it was 3DMax...
cuz i do not have it on my laptop, but i made a small level with UDK to learn the basics

now i sugest to go back to question and answering
Title: Re: Questions and Answers 3D (read the first post before asking a question)
Post by: SIGISMUND on March 25, 2011, 05:52:45 pm
Actually if we are talking about stuff like full3D world - 360 camera, zooming, camera pitching and such like stuff, then yes, we would need a little upgrade to the engine/mapper.Where in the hell did you get that information? FOnline engine is based on nothing, it's made from scratch.

I didn't get none from anywhere it was just an question .
Title: Re: Questions and Answers 3D (read the first post before asking a question)
Post by: Luther Blissett on April 04, 2011, 01:01:42 pm
Some questions about modelling :

Hats
1) Now we've got a separate slot for these (and separate position in armour tracker), should they have their own separate texture file?
For example, the duster coat I did had the hat and coat on the same texture image - should this be separated and reuploaded?
(http://img140.imageshack.us/img140/4016/q1hats.png)

2) When uploading hats, should we leave them on a "human base model", to make the size / positioning easier to work out?
(http://img858.imageshack.us/img858/3811/q3hatmodel.png)

Base model texture
3) You'd been working on methods to change trousers / skin colour etc by using parts of different textures on the base human model. Are there any guidelines for which parts we should / shouldn't paint over? For example, on the "Gangster suit", the collar (and top of the tie) goes above the neckline of the head :
(http://img850.imageshack.us/img850/825/q2neckline.png)
Does the entire head need to be left blank, and I should therefore make the collar as part of the coat model?
or
Can it be drawn on, as long as it stops at a line of edges on the model, i.e. move the edge to the green or red lines I've marked?.
Title: Re: Questions and Answers 3D (read the first post before asking a question)
Post by: Graf on April 04, 2011, 04:14:39 pm
As for me, it's more convenient to have one file and texture for the headwear and another file for the rest of armor. Because it was quite painful to separate headwear from the entire body.
But it's just my opinion. I think that it's better ask Karpov about such things.
Title: Re: Questions and Answers 3D (read the first post before asking a question)
Post by: Karpov on April 04, 2011, 05:10:48 pm
Luther , as long as the mapping coordinates on the hat stay the same, there is no problem with the texture being part of the coat texture.

Second question, yes please  :). Most of the files I recieve don't use the same scale as my model, so having the body makes it easier for me to match the size, I just scale it up or down to the height of my character, and then delete one of them.

Last question: no, you can't do that  :( . The texture for the head extends to the last edge you see in the mapping coordinates. I made the division there because I wanted a round T-shirt collar, something standard, if you need anything else you should make it part of the model.

If you want to know where exactly these divisions are made, look for the material IDs in the model. When you are selecting faces, there is an option to select those Mat IDs, that will highlight the zone.
Title: Re: Questions and Answers 3D (read the first post before asking a question)
Post by: Luther Blissett on April 04, 2011, 09:17:50 pm
Cool. Cheers for making that all clear. All makes sense.

I'll separate "optional extras" like hats on all future ones, so hopefully it makes it a bit easier for everyone. Unless you've already started rigging the duster coat, I can split them and reupload for you (will be a quick job to do).

I assume the material thing applies on the arms as well - so you've either got "vest" (cut off at top of arm) or "full length sleeve" (cut off at hand) on the base model, but "half sleeves" could be done with a model?

Title: Re: Questions and Answers 3D (read the first post before asking a question)
Post by: Hasina on April 04, 2011, 11:25:52 pm
I hope Someone makes Skins look good on Females to, xD
Title: Re: Questions and Answers 3D (read the first post before asking a question)
Post by: Karpov on April 05, 2011, 01:15:46 am
Sure, skin tones have to be the same for both male and female characters.

Luther, there are 2 sleeve types, short and full.

Check this list I had to make for myself, because it was difficult to remember all the numbers.

0 Short Sleeve
1 Shirt Body
2 Long Sleeve
3 Knee
4 Shoe
5 Hands
6 Briefs
7 Hi-Boot (goes from below the knee to the shoes)
8 Short Pants
9 Head
10 Hi waist (female only, allows you to use high waist pants, like the original sprites)

Those are the subsets. For example if I need a long sleeve shirt, I activate number 0 1 and 2. If I want short pants, 6 and 8. Also I can use number 5 for gloves. The "high boot" subset can have either texture from shoes, to make it look like boots, or texture from pants.
Title: Re: Questions and Answers 3D (read the first post before asking a question)
Post by: Luther Blissett on April 05, 2011, 02:10:45 am
Excellent. I'll have a look at these. Should set me up nicely for next few models :)
Title: Re: Questions and Answers 3D (read the first post before asking a question)
Post by: SmartCheetah on April 05, 2011, 12:23:31 pm
I can work on female skintones+tattoos later this month when I'll have more spare time. The second thing I need, except free time, is pretty much done basic skin for females.
Cheers.
Title: Re: Questions and Answers 3D (read the first post before asking a question)
Post by: pistacja on April 05, 2011, 06:29:05 pm
I can work on female skintones+tattoos later this month when I'll have more spare time. The second thing I need, except free time, is pretty much done basic skin for females.
Cheers.
Here you go, the original and my abandoned WIP rendered into the default UV layout.
http://www.sendspace.com/file/82uiut
Title: Re: Questions and Answers 3D (read the first post before asking a question)
Post by: GEN_Kessler on April 06, 2011, 07:02:59 am
Is all the game gonna go 3d or just part of it?
Title: Re: Questions and Answers 3D (read the first post before asking a question)
Post by: lehytek on April 06, 2011, 07:05:45 am
Atm there's just some 3D. Rats, ants and desert stalkers are 3D. Someone correct me if I'm wrong.
Title: Re: Questions and Answers 3D (read the first post before asking a question)
Post by: Lexx on April 06, 2011, 07:11:20 am
This doesn't answer his question.


First, it has been said very often already and can be found all over the forum.

Second, to make it short: Only critters, nothing more.
Title: Re: Questions and Answers 3D (read the first post before asking a question)
Post by: SIGISMUND on April 06, 2011, 01:49:17 pm
The game will be made fully 3D.But not anytime sooner.Cuz people wanted 3D critters and weapons they got them.Then they will want 3D eviorments.But until then play Fallout 3 online :D

If I may add....


Why not Lexx?Last time I played Van Burren and tested some maps I saw that almost any kind of building was modelled so if the modells are there why not use them?Maybe not really fully 3D but the buildings atlesat.Cuz 3D players and sprite building's isn't that pretty.
Title: Re: Questions and Answers 3D (read the first post before asking a question)
Post by: Lexx on April 06, 2011, 02:18:19 pm
Quote
The game will be made fully 3D.But not anytime sooner.

No it will not.

Also, no, Van Buren models are incomplete and require still a lot work. Beside this, like it was written already often enough, transforming the whole game into 3d is not what we are aiming for: Keeping the game as close to the original look and feel as possible.
Title: Re: Questions and Answers 3D (read the first post before asking a question)
Post by: SIGISMUND on April 06, 2011, 07:12:35 pm
Oh please Lexx.....Let's just can it for now.

(http://t1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQN_wqV7s4PNtSfw2gZZT5jOPfAx0FpSx5NoqNIFPcrQe0tXWOd)
Title: Re: Questions and Answers 3D (read the first post before asking a question)
Post by: Surf on April 06, 2011, 08:00:50 pm
Oh please Lexx.....Let's just can it for now.

(http://t1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQN_wqV7s4PNtSfw2gZZT5jOPfAx0FpSx5NoqNIFPcrQe0tXWOd)

It wasn't Lexx starting this bullshit with 3d enviroments.
Title: Re: Questions and Answers 3D (read the first post before asking a question)
Post by: Valkirie on April 16, 2011, 06:28:11 pm
Hey their,

I'm afraid I'll sound newbish to you but I have a question for you 3D makers.
I already have my own Fonline game running and understand how 3D models are linked to character depending on its items. Here is my question:

 - Why are 2238 models screwed when I'm trying to use them ? Looks like their rotations are wrong and size like 1500 times to big. Is their any tutorial about how to use any of them, maybe (probably) I'm doing something wrong.

Best regards, Benjamin.
Title: Re: Questions and Answers 3D (read the first post before asking a question)
Post by: Aaron Tiger on April 19, 2011, 04:43:00 am
A small question. 3D is not in the Fallout 1 and 2 games. Why are we adding it? It's going to start feeling not at all like the good old classic games.
Title: Re: Questions and Answers 3D (read the first post before asking a question)
Post by: Michaelh139 on April 19, 2011, 04:44:30 am
A small question. 3D is not in the Fallout 1 and 2 games. Why are we adding it? It's going to start feeling not at all like the good old classic games.

it's because not all models in the classic fallouts were finished.  But we could not possibly finish it with such little manpower and resources in such a form, therefore we have to change everything to 3D which is 10x easier/faster afaik.  I have no experience in this so I'm just going off from what I've heard.

In classic fallouts the characters and animations are ...  I think some sort of really detailed clay figures, pic by pic taken and put in as your classic animations/models.  Thus you have your Vault dweller model/animations, punk raiders, etc.
Title: Re: Questions and Answers 3D (read the first post before asking a question)
Post by: Lizard on April 19, 2011, 05:57:45 am
In classic fallouts the characters and animations are ...  I think some sort of really detailed clay figures

Nah. Talking heads were this case, but the character frames were rendered from 3 models. (which are lost like Holy Grail)
Title: Re: Questions and Answers 3D (read the first post before asking a question)
Post by: Aaron Tiger on April 19, 2011, 06:07:50 am
it's because not all models in the classic fallouts were finished.  But we could not possibly finish it with such little manpower and resources in such a form, therefore we have to change everything to 3D which is 10x easier/faster afaik.  I have no experience in this so I'm just going off from what I've heard.

In classic fallouts the characters and animations are ...  I think some sort of really detailed clay figures, pic by pic taken and put in as your classic animations/models.  Thus you have your Vault dweller model/animations, punk raiders, etc.

They WERE finished. They are just old, and are crappy in our standards. Doesn't mean we have to get rid of old school fallout. If you want 3D fallout, go play the Bethesda ones (Bethesda rules, not saying they suck.)

To make this post an actual question and not just me being a ranting noob, don't you think there should be an option to switch between the old graphics and the new? You can in Runescape.

If they can do it, we can too! Lol. It'd appeal to nostalgia freaks like me.
Title: Re: Questions and Answers 3D (read the first post before asking a question)
Post by: Lexx on April 19, 2011, 06:19:35 am
It was explained like 100 times, why we are adding 3d player models: To be able to customize them more easy. Adding helmets, adding new and more clothes, having more variations in color, being able to play as a black colored character, playing a ghoul, playing a super mutant, etc. etc.
Title: Re: Questions and Answers 3D (read the first post before asking a question)
Post by: SIGISMUND on April 19, 2011, 07:35:20 am
They WERE finished. They are just old, and are crappy in our standards. Doesn't mean we have to get rid of old school fallout. If you want 3D fallout, go play the Bethesda ones (Bethesda rules, not saying they suck.)

To make this post an actual question and not just me being a ranting noob, don't you think there should be an option to switch between the old graphics and the new? You can in Runescape.

If they can do it, we can too! Lol. It'd appeal to nostalgia freaks like me.


If you don't  want 3D make your own server there is the SDK and the tutorials on how to make it.
Title: Re: Questions and Answers 3D (read the first post before asking a question)
Post by: Aaron Tiger on April 19, 2011, 07:54:00 am

If you don't  want 3D make your own server there is the SDK and the tutorials on how to make it.

Isn't that modding?
Title: Re: Questions and Answers 3D (read the first post before asking a question)
Post by: Jimmy BoyX on April 19, 2011, 07:54:38 am
They WERE finished. They are just old, and are crappy in our standards. Doesn't mean we have to get rid of old school fallout. If you want 3D fallout, go play (...)

Ehhhh.... Again "PRO-OLD SCHOOL-UBER_RP_PLAYER".

FOnline won't have a future. Why? Who will interesting this game next 5-10 years? Nobody. I love orginal Fallout and FOnline but 2D graphics in our time is too old and lots of people don't want playing this game because it "sucks" graphics. They don't know how much fun they can get in FOnline because they don't play because graphics "sucks". We must start update your children, one day we will have new 3D engine with 360 option, fans' models and maybe new world in 3D but it might be IN THE FUTURE - I don't know when, maybe 10-15 years?

First, you should HOST YOUR SERVER and check how 3D looks in gameplay, it's not bad like YOU THINKS. If you don't like it because "IT'S NEW AND SUCK AND I MUST HATING IT" make your server or go other when are 2D jpeg.
Title: Re: Questions and Answers 3D (read the first post before asking a question)
Post by: Lexx on April 19, 2011, 09:06:40 am
The visual quality of the critters never was the reason for us to go for 3d models. It's solely the customization aspect and nothing else. Especially because we want to try to make the 3d models look like the original 2d critters, the above logic (old graphic = sux, nobody wants it) is invalid.

Quote
one day we will have new 3D engine with 360 option, fans' models and maybe new world in 3D but it might be IN THE FUTURE

Not in 2238, as was said already a few times.
Title: Re: Questions and Answers 3D (read the first post before asking a question)
Post by: Jimmy BoyX on April 19, 2011, 10:54:45 am
Not in 2238, as was said already a few times.

I didin't say in 2238.

There're many other servers and other programmers & graphics.
Title: Re: Questions and Answers 3D (read the first post before asking a question)
Post by: Lexx on April 19, 2011, 10:56:39 am
Yeah, but this is the 2238 forum and a thread about 3d models in 2238.
Title: Re: Questions and Answers 3D (read the first post before asking a question)
Post by: Michaelh139 on April 19, 2011, 12:31:59 pm
They WERE finished. They are just old, and are crappy in our standards. Doesn't mean we have to get rid of old school fallout. If you want 3D fallout, go play the Bethesda ones (Bethesda rules, not saying they suck.)
Can a punk raider girl wield a minigun?  Can a red haired vault dweller woman wield a SMG?  Or even wear armor?

No.  becuase they weren't finished.
Title: Re: Questions and Answers 3D (read the first post before asking a question)
Post by: Lexx on April 19, 2011, 12:34:57 pm
They used the same animations as hero models, so they kind of have been finished. Just not added to the game files, as back in the days, everything needed to fit on one CD. Also the animations haven't been used by NPCs, so there was no need to include them anyway.

Fallout 1 even still has some unused animations in the game files, like walking upstairs and downstairs or special spear attacks for the vault suit critter, etc.
Title: Re: Questions and Answers 3D (read the first post before asking a question)
Post by: Gray on April 19, 2011, 02:27:30 pm
A small question. 3D is not in the Fallout 1 and 2 games. Why are we adding it? It's going to start feeling not at all like the good old classic games.
A small answer. Because 3D is much easy to customize. Original fallout engine is not suitable for MMORPG, it is completely exhausted already. Adding new critters is a hell long laborious process. Adding new animations for all critters is nearly impossible.
3D is flexible. You can add new critter and it will take all present animations automatically. Or you can add new animation and all critters take it. You can add new item and attach it to any critter. If you will read this branch of forum more closely, you'll find different playable critters (instead of only vaultsuit), different skin tones, tattoos, casual suits, etc. Adding it to an original 2D engine is impossible. 2D is not a feature, it is just a technical restriction.
Have I answered your question?

P.S. and a little correction: you do not adding 3D, we do it.
Title: Re: Questions and Answers 3D (read the first post before asking a question)
Post by: Luther Blissett on April 19, 2011, 02:38:25 pm
P.S. and a little correction: you do not adding 3D, we do it.

... unless he wants to volunteer and help out, of course :)
Title: Re: Questions and Answers 3D (read the first post before asking a question)
Post by: Haraldx on April 19, 2011, 03:17:48 pm
it's because not all models in the classic fallouts were finished.
False
But we could not possibly finish it with such little manpower and resources in such a form, therefore we have to change everything to 3D which is 10x easier/faster afaik.  I have no experience in this so I'm just going off from what I've heard.
In this case, the one who told you this information must correct himself. False information, see Lexx's post for the true reason.

In classic fallouts the characters and animations are ...  I think some sort of really detailed clay figures, pic by pic taken and put in as your classic animations/models.  Thus you have your Vault dweller model/animations, punk raiders, etc.
False again... Clay figures were used for the talking heads only, which were later scanned with a laser thus the laser makes an EXACT copy of the clay model on your computer in full 3D. Then, the 3D "clay" model got a texture, later getting all the animations. Once all the animations were done (they were quite stiff by the way) they took screenshots and then put these screens together making a 2D animation play. Player/other NPC was made in 3D only, no clay models for it, and again, the texture, the stiff animation then being converted into 2D sprites. Yes, there are also some 3D cutscenes, it is unknown for me how that was made tho.
Title: Re: Questions and Answers 3D (read the first post before asking a question)
Post by: Valkirie on April 19, 2011, 06:52:34 pm
(http://img820.imageshack.us/img820/1091/screen19042011185135.jpg)
I'm trying to use Ranger Armor but as you can see... Something is going wrong... Any idea ?
Title: Re: Questions and Answers 3D (read the first post before asking a question)
Post by: Graf on April 19, 2011, 08:07:41 pm
I'm trying to use Ranger Armor but as you can see... Something is going wrong... Any idea ?

Did you get it from the 3D repository? My guess is no. I think, that you've put a model in the game without of editing and resizing it.
Title: Re: Questions and Answers 3D (read the first post before asking a question)
Post by: Valkirie on April 19, 2011, 08:19:33 pm
Took it from SVN. I modified _VBHuman.fo3d from fonline sdk.
Code: [Select]
# Body
Layer 3
Value 6   Root Attach armor_male_combatranger.fo3d

Code: [Select]
# Head
Layer 6
Value 25  Root Attach Armor_male_combatrangerhelmet.x

Modified client_main as a test:
Code: [Select]
case PID_HARDENED_POWER_ARMOR:
bodyAtr     = 6;
headAtr     = 25;
break;

Title: Re: Questions and Answers 3D (read the first post before asking a question)
Post by: Graf on April 19, 2011, 08:22:52 pm
You don't need to modify anything in it to make it work properly. All armors mentioned here (http://www.fo2238.fodev.net/wiki/3d_armors_development_tracker) as uploaded will be working on the SDK if you just paste it to the client/data/art folder.

Also, which SDK revision do you use?
Title: Re: Questions and Answers 3D (read the first post before asking a question)
Post by: Valkirie on April 19, 2011, 08:25:00 pm
You don't need to modify anything in it to make it work properly. All armors mentioned here (http://www.fo2238.fodev.net/wiki/3d_armors_development_tracker) as uploaded will be working on the SDK if you just paste it to the client/data/art folder.

Also, which SDK revision do you use?
The last one sir. Also I'm not using those models with internal commands like ~run debug blablabla I'm trying to attach them to items. Maybe I'm doing something wrong since I'm not using _FOHuman.fo3d.
Title: Re: Questions and Answers 3D (read the first post before asking a question)
Post by: Lexx on April 19, 2011, 08:42:23 pm
You have to use _FOHuman.fo3d, because that's the main character mesh.
Title: Re: Questions and Answers 3D (read the first post before asking a question)
Post by: Valkirie on April 19, 2011, 08:45:39 pm
You have to use _FOHuman.fo3d, because that's the main character mesh.

You mean, replace _VBHuman.fo3d content by _FOHuman.fo3d's one ?
Title: Re: Questions and Answers 3D (read the first post before asking a question)
Post by: Haraldx on April 19, 2011, 08:51:49 pm
Forget about the VBHuman! It's not used! Use the FOHuman only!
Title: Re: Questions and Answers 3D (read the first post before asking a question)
Post by: Valkirie on April 19, 2011, 09:01:19 pm
Forget about the VBHuman! It's not used! Use the FOHuman only!
VBHuman is used defaulty by SDK. Also i don't know if client launch fo3d files automatically, that's why I asked if replacing VBHuman content by FOHuman's one was required.

Would you mind if I ask you to write me a little tutorial, like "HOW I DID RIGHT AFTER DOWNLOADING SDK" maybe here or anywhere you want (irc ?)

EDIT: I copied the whole SVN to my client and just tried couple of param commands. None worked, like if _FOHuman.fo3d wasn't in use. So.... Is their a 2238 brotherhood keeping secrets about how to use those 3D models or just some details I missed... ?
Title: Re: Questions and Answers 3D (read the first post before asking a question)
Post by: Valkirie on April 20, 2011, 08:40:58 pm
Help me out ! :P
Title: Re: Questions and Answers 3D (read the first post before asking a question)
Post by: Reiniat on April 21, 2011, 03:55:09 am
The visual quality of the critters never was the reason for us to go for 3d models. It's solely the customization aspect and nothing else. Especially because we want to try to make the 3d models look like the original 2d critters, the above logic (old graphic = sux, nobody wants it) is invalid.

Not in 2238, as was said already a few times.

since the original models of fallout where made initially in 3D and then renderized (like many other games) there is a posibility to renderize (yes i know it dont writes like that) the new 3D models, in a faster and not manually way, for keep the look of the old ones?

I LOVE THE OLD ONES 2D WAS AWESOME, if there is a way for get the old 3D models... maybe money can make that... i will donate REALLY like 1000M$ (mexican pesos wich isnt  really much) to this cause if you could pay to Black Isle for they, tough i think they are completely erased from the existence (cryes)

also i wish to know if after 3D is implemented we will be able to use our own 3D animation into the game, like is doing already with the incomplete 2D animation, im unable to help now to the 3d working, but if things going good i will able time for make some animatons, wich i want to see into the game, only for lok good of course
Title: Re: Questions and Answers 3D (read the first post before asking a question)
Post by: Gray on April 21, 2011, 05:37:06 pm
since the original models of fallout where made initially in 3D and then renderized (like many other games) there is a posibility to renderize (yes i know it dont writes like that) the new 3D models, in a faster and not manually way, for keep the look of the old ones?
Inasmuch as sprites were rendered from 3D models, it is possible to make 3D models unrecognizable similar to sprites unless they are static. In dynamic they in any case will look better because of smooth 3D animation and fixed 2D framerate (10 frames/sec, speaking about Fallout sprites).
Title: Re: Questions and Answers 3D (read the first post before asking a question)
Post by: Valkirie on April 25, 2011, 10:33:35 pm
Still need help  ;D Is their any fonline 3D pro ?
Title: Re: Questions and Answers 3D (read the first post before asking a question)
Post by: Jimmy BoyX on April 26, 2011, 11:26:35 am
I don't see any new Karpov's movie about animations. Does it complete?
Title: Re: Questions and Answers 3D (read the first post before asking a question)
Post by: Jotisz on April 27, 2011, 05:23:29 pm
Well I just made the ghoul model now I moving to the supermutant if you can do good animations I think you could help out with one of these don't know if Karpov will have time to animate them too. I will be busy in the next month so there is a chance I will be able to do only an armature for them (at least ghoul has same animations for some as human).
Btw something along animations would it be ok to give more weapon to the poor ghouls and mutants. I don't see why the ghouls shouldn't be able to use hammers, smgs, pistols and clubs. Also mutants could use knife, spear, hammer and club too (last three in one hand). With 3d it shouldn't be a problem as long as its a welcomed idea.
Title: Re: Questions and Answers 3D (read the first post before asking a question)
Post by: LagMaster on April 29, 2011, 04:33:47 pm
let's make super mutants be able to use small guns too, i mean pistols and rifles(F3+NV they use hunting rifles and assault rifles)
Title: Re: Questions and Answers 3D (read the first post before asking a question)
Post by: Jotisz on April 29, 2011, 04:50:58 pm
Well I don't know about small guns haven't played fallout 3 nor New Vegas (the later one will change I think though).
With 3d it would be possible to make easily but the question goes would it look good, I suggested the knife club hammer and spear since they should be usable by an over-sized hand too, but would the finger of supermutant could fire a rifle well we can look into it but I think it wouldn't look good (same could be said to my idea too) anyways one of the devs will surely give an answer till the model is fully ready (at least a week or so could be more).
Title: Re: Questions and Answers 3D (read the first post before asking a question)
Post by: Graf on April 29, 2011, 09:52:07 pm
If you want to know my opinion - SM shouldn't be able to use small guns, same goes to ghouls, which shouldn't be able to pick up a big gun or energy weapon. Like in many MMO, in Fonline humans should be something universal, a gold middle between other "races". Though, when 3D will be implemented, I believe that it's a pretty good idea to give humans some disadvantages according to others:

For example:
Super mutants should get some bonus while using BigGuns/Energy (can't use anything except BG/EW)
Ghouls should get some bonus while using SmallGuns (can't use anything except SG)
Humans should get some bonus while using Melee/Unarmed (can use any type of weapon)
Title: Re: Questions and Answers 3D (read the first post before asking a question)
Post by: spike allen on April 29, 2011, 10:47:32 pm
Humans should get some bonus while using Melee/Unarmed (can use any type of weapon)

Why should they be better in HtH than super muties? I still remember one of the  endings in F1, overseer gets punched to death and he is using 2x gatlings:)
Title: Re: Questions and Answers 3D (read the first post before asking a question)
Post by: Jimmy BoyX on April 30, 2011, 09:55:56 am
I don't see any new Karpov's movie about animations. Does it complete?
Title: Re: Questions and Answers 3D (read the first post before asking a question)
Post by: Haraldx on April 30, 2011, 11:18:51 am
If you want to know my opinion - SM shouldn't be able to use small guns, same goes to ghouls, which shouldn't be able to pick up a big gun or energy weapon. Like in many MMO, in Fonline humans should be something universal, a gold middle between other "races". Though, when 3D will be implemented, I believe that it's a pretty good idea to give humans some disadvantages according to others:

For example:
Super mutants should get some bonus while using BigGuns/Energy (can't use anything except BG/EW)
Ghouls should get some bonus while using SmallGuns (can't use anything except SG)
Humans should get some bonus while using Melee/Unarmed (can use any type of weapon)

Ummm... no, man... That seems to be wrong. Ever played Fallout Tactics? Mutants were able to carry anything! However, they were most profficient with unarmed and big guns, heck, they were shooting those snipers and rifles with 1 hand! However, I think I read somewhere mutants have badly trained eyes or something like that, so they got a quite low perception - no super mutant sniper which can't be knocked down for you :P. Ghouls should also be able to use Laser rifle, laser/plasma pistol maybe flamer and rocket launcher. Plasma rifle and all other big guns shouldn't be supported, because of theyr weight or huge recoil. Laser rifle is using the wrong sprite in Fallout 2 anyway. Humans should get no bonus at all - they are able to use everything while mutants and ghouls only certain weapons. EDIT: There are 2 antidotes in the 3D tracker/wiki
I haven't seen Karpov himself on the forums for some time  :-\
Title: Re: Questions and Answers 3D (read the first post before asking a question)
Post by: Graf on April 30, 2011, 12:05:33 pm
Thanks Harald, I'll fix the tracker issue once I'll get an access to my PC. Concerning these 'races' you might be right too, I just didn't thought much about it.
Title: Re: Questions and Answers 3D (read the first post before asking a question)
Post by: barter1113 on May 12, 2011, 03:19:08 pm
Hello.


Today I am testing 3D models which are available to download and I have some questions. First, is it possible that models will look more detail in 100% normal look in game? Second, is that possible make models more similar to 2D enviroment? I very like 3D but it is not fit little to enviroment. It's ok but in my opinion models need some fixs.
Title: Re: Questions and Answers 3D (read the first post before asking a question)
Post by: Graf on May 12, 2011, 06:41:52 pm
is it possible that models will look more detail in 100% normal look in game?
Second, is that possible make models more similar to 2D enviroment?
Both are possible, but not simultaneously. Shaders could be used to make 3D character look pixelated, so it would fit the game better in general, but in that case it would look awful at a close distance (just like it is right now without of 3D).
Title: Re: Questions and Answers 3D (read the first post before asking a question)
Post by: Surf on May 12, 2011, 07:10:22 pm
but in that case it would look awful at a close distance (just like it is right now without of 3D).

The game is not meant to be played with close zoom in, so that's not an issue. Such a shader will be used later (if someone finds the time to do it :P ).
Title: Re: Questions and Answers 3D (read the first post before asking a question)
Post by: Graf on May 12, 2011, 07:24:59 pm
Such a shader will be used later (if someone finds the time to do it :P ).

I honestly hope, that no one will find a single minute for it. These models look great as they are now.
Title: Re: Questions and Answers 3D (read the first post before asking a question)
Post by: Lexx on May 12, 2011, 07:48:11 pm
Well, shaders are client side. Everyone can use them or not or use a totally different shader.
Title: Re: Questions and Answers 3D (read the first post before asking a question)
Post by: Surf on May 12, 2011, 08:02:02 pm
I honestly hope, that no one will find a single minute for it. These models look great as they are now.

This is true. But for me a consistent graphical style is more important then some pretty models not fitting into the enviroment. I like the pixelated look.
Title: Re: Questions and Answers 3D (read the first post before asking a question)
Post by: Gray on May 12, 2011, 09:59:49 pm
I like the pixelated look.
Just switch off anti-aliasing.
Title: Re: Questions and Answers 3D (read the first post before asking a question)
Post by: Surf on May 12, 2011, 10:03:33 pm
I've never enabled it.
Title: Re: Questions and Answers 3D (read the first post before asking a question)
Post by: Lexx on May 13, 2011, 09:45:53 am
Well, original Fallout critters only have pixelated outlines. Their "inside" is smooth (as smooth as it was possible in 1997).
Title: Re: Questions and Answers 3D (read the first post before asking a question)
Post by: zamp on May 15, 2011, 04:46:20 am
Both are possible, but not simultaneously. Shaders could be used to make 3D character look pixelated, so it would fit the game better in general, but in that case it would look awful at a close distance (just like it is right now without of 3D).

Youre going at this all wrong. Just disable texture filtering/mipmap and voilá you've got "pixelated" shit all over.. If the 3d part is done with opengl its easy to not enable texture filtering code wise
(http://www.bitsphere.co.za/gameDev/openGL/img/mipmapping.png)
(http://www.captainvideo.nl/rob/m4/pix/m4mipmap.JPG)

If the game is done with directx, then well.. You can always get some directx tweak software and disable texture filtering
Title: Re: Questions and Answers 3D (read the first post before asking a question)
Post by: barter1113 on May 15, 2011, 01:21:20 pm
How can I make 3D better? Can someone make tutorial for it?
Title: Re: Questions and Answers 3D (read the first post before asking a question)
Post by: Graf on May 15, 2011, 01:31:34 pm
Check this topic (http://fodev.net/forum/index.php?topic=13902.0) for more info. Also, this (http://lmgtfy.com/?q=3D+modelling+tutorial) should help.
Title: Re: Questions and Answers 3D (read the first post before asking a question)
Post by: barter1113 on May 15, 2011, 01:49:57 pm
Check this topic (http://fodev.net/forum/index.php?topic=13902.0) for more info. Also, this (http://lmgtfy.com/?q=3D+modelling+tutorial) should help.

Not this. I want use fonline options foconfig.cfg or something for make 3D fitter to enviroment.
Title: Re: Questions and Answers 3D (read the first post before asking a question)
Post by: Graf on May 15, 2011, 01:51:14 pm
Not this. I want use fonline options foconfig.cfg or something for make 3D fitter to enviroment.
Answered before on this page. It's isn't implemented, thus not possible now.
Title: Re: Questions and Answers 3D (read the first post before asking a question)
Post by: Who on May 22, 2011, 03:32:22 am
I dont know if this was answered allready:


About all this 3d, the character costumisation i was wondering, what will happen to the existing players...

A) Their characters will be able to cuztimise and pass to 3d?

B) Will stay in 2d in a way to show old players?

C) There will be a wipe?

Also i would like to know, cause neither the developers video and the van buren show "gore" deaths, i wanna know if there will be Blood mess death style in 3d

Ps= im from "tierra de nadie"(spanish), so forgive my bad english
Title: Re: Questions and Answers 3D (read the first post before asking a question)
Post by: Graf on May 22, 2011, 07:21:05 am
A) Their characters will be able to cuztimise and pass to 3d?
B) Will stay in 2d in a way to show old players?

After wipe and 3D implementing, the whole player-base will be erased, so no one will be able to play by 2D character anymore.

C) There will be a wipe?

The wipe is necessary to apply that kind of changes, so yes, there will be a wipe before we'll be able to play by 3D characters.

Also i would like to know, cause neither the developers video and the van buren show "gore" deaths, i wanna know if there will be Blood mess death style in 3d

Gore death animations are planned, because our aim is to recreate Fallout in 3D as close as possible to the 2D originals. We even have some test animations. Here (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G-Lc81Fb_ZU) you can take a look at them.

P.S. Please next time use this topic if you have any questions about 3D development, instead of creating a separate one.
Title: Re: Questions and Answers 3D (read the first post before asking a question)
Post by: LagMaster on May 22, 2011, 08:39:47 am
P.S. Please next time use this topic if you have any questions about 3D development, instead of creating a separate one.
yes, also have fun in 2D
Title: Re: Questions and Answers 3D (read the first post before asking a question)
Post by: Jimmy BoyX on May 24, 2011, 08:20:04 pm
When will you do blood efects and special deaths?
Title: Re: Questions and Answers 3D (read the first post before asking a question)
Post by: LagMaster on May 24, 2011, 09:03:02 pm
there is a problem, our only animator is gone missing, so we need new animators to work the animations out
Title: Re: Questions and Answers 3D (read the first post before asking a question)
Post by: Grommok on May 24, 2011, 10:16:29 pm
I had a few questions about 3D in Fonline: 2238:

1: When it should be implemented?
2: What programs are used to make the models, ect? (i personally dont have any experience, but might have some friends with)
3: To make things simplier, you coulndt just rip off half of the models from Fallout 3 Tech Demo? (for fallout 3 i mean Van Buren, not bethesda crap)

i think it's everything for now.
Title: Re: Questions and Answers 3D (read the first post before asking a question)
Post by: Gray on May 25, 2011, 05:43:43 am
I had a few questions about 3D in Fonline: 2238:

1: When it should be implemented?
2: What programs are used to make the models, ect? (i personally dont have any experience, but might have some friends with)
3: To make things simplier, you coulndt just rip off half of the models from Fallout 3 Tech Demo? (for fallout 3 i mean Van Buren, not bethesda crap)

i think it's everything for now.
1. When everything will be done.
2. 3DS MAX, Wings 3D, Blender, etc.
3. We have them. Most of them are not falloutish enough.
Title: Re: Questions and Answers 3D (read the first post before asking a question)
Post by: Haraldx on May 25, 2011, 10:04:40 am
I had a few questions about 3D in Fonline: 2238:

1: When it should be implemented?
2: What programs are used to make the models, ect? (i personally dont have any experience, but might have some friends with)
3: To make things simplier, you coulndt just rip off half of the models from Fallout 3 Tech Demo? (for fallout 3 i mean Van Buren, not bethesda crap)

i think it's everything for now.
The first 2 questions: Use search.
About the 3rd question: See Gray's answer. The models are public for a quite long time now. Deathclaw, desert stalker, ant and maybe some other critters are already from Van Buren in full 3D.
Title: Re: Questions and Answers 3D (read the first post before asking a question)
Post by: Grommok on May 25, 2011, 09:37:14 pm
Ok thanks. I've seen ants but i've never met a deathclaw, so i dunno how they look in a falloutish 3d ;D

However, another one: Why dont you add already finished contenent? Like the male PC (from Van Buren, maybe with modifies to use F2 guns)

Actuallly, somewhere i red that in the Tech Demo there's more than wath you play...
Title: Re: Questions and Answers 3D (read the first post before asking a question)
Post by: Graf on May 26, 2011, 07:42:25 am
Why dont you add already finished contenent?

Why to add something, that isn't finished yet and doesn't work properly? We still need a few general animations and all gore death animations to make the game look like it was in F1/F2. After that we'll improve existing models, add different body-types (so it would be playable too) and once all done, it could be added into the game.
Title: Re: Questions and Answers 3D (read the first post before asking a question)
Post by: Haraldx on May 26, 2011, 01:03:10 pm
However, another one: Why dont you add already finished contenent? Like the male PC (from Van Buren, maybe with modifies to use F2 guns)
Those models have missing animations and missing armor models (for example the metal armor and Advanced Power Armor).
Title: Re: Questions and Answers 3D (read the first post before asking a question)
Post by: Gray on May 26, 2011, 02:05:35 pm
Those models have missing animations and missing armor models (for example the metal armor and Advanced Power Armor).
Actually, only robe and leather armor are missing for them. I've made all other armors before Karpov appears with his awesome but incompatible animations. I has to adapt that models.
Title: Re: Questions and Answers 3D (read the first post before asking a question)
Post by: Haraldx on May 26, 2011, 09:13:31 pm
Actually, only robe and leather armor are missing for them. I've made all other armors before Karpov appears with his awesome but incompatible animations. I has to adapt that models.
Damn, missed out that one >.<
Title: Re: Questions and Answers 3D (read the first post before asking a question)
Post by: Karpov on May 26, 2011, 09:14:55 pm
The main reason behind the model's incompatibility is the scale: VB models -and skeleton- are smaller, something like 100 times smaller. So using animation for small bones into the big model makes every limb to shrink to the size on the animation, which comes out in the game as an amorphous piece of crumpled paper kind of thing.

I made the FOhuman.fo3d for 1 reason. I did not want to overwrite the VB model, so I could use both at once. So I created that alternative file in which I specify the parameters for my model.

The file that addresses the FOhuman.fo3d is the specific body type, that is, VBMaleStrong.fo3d and VBFemaleNormal.fo3d. The rest of the bodytypes is using the default VBHuman.fo3d.

Hope that helps. And I'm surprised I still remember this  ;D
Title: Re: Questions and Answers 3D (read the first post before asking a question)
Post by: Bones on May 28, 2011, 07:35:40 pm
Is there any way I can get a model in .obj? I want to create one of the armors for the game (and having a currently used .obj would be very helpful), but in the link from this thread I could only get the .X file, and I can't import them in my 3D package.
Even more, I don't know why but I can't use the old DXViewer that I used to use years ago, it can't read any file now :S

Title: Re: Questions and Answers 3D (read the first post before asking a question)
Post by: Graf on May 28, 2011, 07:44:57 pm
Is there any way I can get a model in .obj?

Here they are: Male  (http://www.mediafire.com/?k1lco34hdort1zt)and Female  (http://www.mediafire.com/?2obd10d0v24dxdd). Please note, that if you'll make an armor, later you'll need to reshape it to both genders.
Title: Re: Questions and Answers 3D (read the first post before asking a question)
Post by: Bones on May 28, 2011, 08:25:14 pm
ok thank you

just out of curiosity: how are you planning on tackling the gore deaths? If the engine uses the 3D models in real time (which I suppose it does, since otherwise the polycount would be pointless), it will be quite difficult to animate a destruction of the armor/body without going crazy with the polycount.

Having said that, the only way I can currently think of is to have a higher polycount version of each armor/body in the client, with the gore death animations in them. Then, the engine would swap both versions of the model used for the character when dying. However, this means doubling the models in the client, and heavily increasing the polycounts for big battles (unless the engine itself could render the final frame of the death animation of the character, store it in the memory, then would destroy the model itself and replace it with the rendered sprite, but I don't know if this is possible with the current engine)

If only the 'normal' version of the model must be used at all times, there should always be present some inner polygons for chopping the arms and legs, and then separating them in the death animation. The same principle can be applied to the armors as well, but I don't know how well it will look

Just my two cents on the subject  :P
Title: Re: Questions and Answers 3D (read the first post before asking a question)
Post by: LagMaster on May 28, 2011, 08:27:46 pm
for burst death anim i think a step by step retexture is good, for where you die in case of explision or plasma or cutted by laset if we use some alpha chanel retexture
Title: Re: Questions and Answers 3D (read the first post before asking a question)
Post by: Gray on May 28, 2011, 09:03:02 pm
just out of curiosity: how are you planning on tackling the gore deaths? If the engine uses the 3D models in real time (which I suppose it does, since otherwise the polycount would be pointless), it will be quite difficult to animate a destruction of the armor/body without going crazy with the polycount.
OK. Gore deaths:
1. Hole in a chest. Models substitution. Just making a copy of every armor with a hole in a chest and exchange the actual model in the moment of death. Blood burst disguising the exchange moment.
2. Laser slice. The same thing.
3. Explosive blast. The same ting.
4. Plasma melt. Keep 2d Animation. What? It looks the same for all armors!
5. Burn. Keep 2D animation.
6. Pulse burn. Keep 2D animation.

So, where is the problem? All we need are particle effects. We can even add SOME NEW animations as head blast, limb cut, etc.
Title: Re: Questions and Answers 3D (read the first post before asking a question)
Post by: Bones on May 28, 2011, 11:26:25 pm
oh no problem at all!!, i was just curious if model substitution was possible  :P

great news
Title: Re: Questions and Answers 3D (read the first post before asking a question)
Post by: Gray on May 28, 2011, 11:38:48 pm
oh no problem at all!!, i was just curious if model substitution was possible  :P

great news
Every armor change is a model substitution ;)
Title: Re: Questions and Answers 3D (read the first post before asking a question)
Post by: Karpov on May 29, 2011, 03:02:51 am
Armors are models attached to the base model, the trick is to attach a new body as an "armor" and hide the original model, this alternative model is almost an exact copy of the character, except for the holes in his chest or whatever we need, and it can hold the base parameters of the player character, which is very important. Once the "armor", the alternative body, is attached , it can play the sequence of the specific death.
   However, this was barely tested, preparing the models by console commands before I blew them into pieces with a bazooka, I don't know if it can be done in real time  :-\. I hope it will work fine.
Title: Re: Questions and Answers 3D (read the first post before asking a question)
Post by: Bones on May 29, 2011, 04:19:49 am
and what about rendering a sprite for the final frame of the animation? and then using that sprite to maintain the dead body (in order to remove the 3D model?

Is it possible? Would it save memory cost?, my guess is that it would, so there would be fewer polygons to render on screen, but I am no coder  :P
Title: Re: Questions and Answers 3D (read the first post before asking a question)
Post by: Gray on May 29, 2011, 08:23:05 am
and what about rendering a sprite for the final frame of the animation? and then using that sprite to maintain the dead body (in order to remove the 3D model?

Is it possible? Would it save memory cost?, my guess is that it would, so there would be fewer polygons to render on screen, but I am no coder  :P
It is possible, but it is a step back and an odd work. Models and animation should be prepared for the rendering anyway, so why not to use them for real-time 3D rendering?
Title: Re: Questions and Answers 3D (read the first post before asking a question)
Post by: Izual on May 29, 2011, 11:22:05 am
4. Plasma melt. Keep 2d Animation. What? It looks the same for all armors!

But it doesn't :(

(http://www.patmax.eu/I3/110529112203.gif)

Unless I misunderstood you?
Title: Re: Questions and Answers 3D (read the first post before asking a question)
Post by: Gray on May 29, 2011, 02:09:45 pm
But it doesn't :(

(http://www.patmax.eu/I3/110529112203.gif)

Unless I misunderstood you?
Maybe I'm glitching, but I remember another more simple animation.
Title: Re: Questions and Answers 3D (read the first post before asking a question)
Post by: Graf on May 29, 2011, 04:09:17 pm
(http://www.patmax.eu/I3/110529112203.gif)

Can't. Stop. Watching  :D

On topic, this is some kind of modified death animation. Original one was the same for all armors, so Gray is right.
Title: Re: Questions and Answers 3D (read the first post before asking a question)
Post by: Jotisz on May 29, 2011, 06:50:09 pm
I don't think so as I remember when the npc armor mod was made there was a need to create this death anim for them too.
Title: Re: Questions and Answers 3D (read the first post before asking a question)
Post by: Izual on May 29, 2011, 08:40:29 pm
I'm pretty sure the .frm I placed in my last post was taken from my database of Fallout 2 .frms... Do you have a link to this global-melt-animation? (that would save a lot of work, for sure, even if I'm a bit scared by the 3D->2D transition during death sequence?)
Title: Re: Questions and Answers 3D (read the first post before asking a question)
Post by: Graf on May 29, 2011, 08:55:15 pm
My bad, I've checked, and it seems that the burning and pulse death animations are the same for everyone, while melting seems to be different for each character (or at least there's more than one type of such animation).
Title: Re: Questions and Answers 3D (read the first post before asking a question)
Post by: Gray on May 29, 2011, 09:07:00 pm
That changes nothing. The animation is quite simple: it's rescaling  body parts by 2 axises and dropping them down. The skeleton model is present in VB files, we need just to rescale it to Fallout human proportions.
Particle effects system is a bigger problem. We haven't it.
Title: Re: Questions and Answers 3D (read the first post before asking a question)
Post by: SmartCheetah on May 30, 2011, 05:39:49 pm
We should definitely start thinking about particle effects. As I wrote in another thread - there are few options to handle it. We just have to select one of those.
Title: Re: Questions and Answers 3D (read the first post before asking a question)
Post by: melcma on June 03, 2011, 08:33:38 am
Some of them looks so professional, but there are some graphics, that i would replace with oryginal.

http://www.fo2238.fodev.net/wiki/File:Magnum_textured2.png
http://www.fo2238.fodev.net/wiki/File:Needler_textured2.png
http://www.fo2238.fodev.net/wiki/File:Zip_textured.png
http://www.fo2238.fodev.net/wiki/File:Tommy_textured.png
http://www.fo2238.fodev.net/wiki/File:Srifle_textured.png
http://www.fo2238.fodev.net/wiki/File:Soff_textured.png
http://www.fo2238.fodev.net/wiki/images/thumb/9/9b/Caws_textured2.png/195px-Caws_textured2.png
http://www.fo2238.fodev.net/wiki/images/thumb/1/18/Vindicator_textured.png/200px-Vindicator_textured.png
http://www.fo2238.fodev.net/wiki/File:Prifle_textured.png
http://www.fo2238.fodev.net/wiki/File:Tex_bc.png
http://www.fo2238.fodev.net/wiki/File:Sldg_tex.png

Sorry for that, but they look like plastic toys for lego and should be reworked.

Just compare them with this:

(http://www.fo2238.fodev.net/wiki/images/thumb/7/75/Mrgazodeserteagle1.png/120px-Mrgazodeserteagle1.png)
(http://www.fo2238.fodev.net/wiki/images/thumb/7/7c/Sslkarpov_textured.png/198px-Sslkarpov_textured.png)


The next thing is animations. I hope that they will not look like sims 1, meybe try to cut fps to look them more "falloutish".

Any plans about muties, ghouls and long haired wastelander?
Title: Re: Questions and Answers 3D (read the first post before asking a question)
Post by: Gray on June 03, 2011, 09:39:15 am
Some of them looks so professional, but there are some graphics, that i would replace with oryginal.
No problem. If you will provide us the original 3D models of that items - we shall replace them.
Sorry for that, but they look like plastic toys for lego and should be reworked.
You have forgotten about the in-game zoom. With proper zoom they will looks just as good as all others.
The next thing is animations. I hope that they will not look like sims 1, meybe try to cut fps to look them more "falloutish".
I'm not certain... you want us to decrease animation quality just to make it looks like jerky 10-frames/sec original sprites? Smooth animation is too good for you?
Any plans about muties, ghouls and long haired wastelander?
Try to search along the forum.
Title: Re: Questions and Answers 3D (read the first post before asking a question)
Post by: Haraldx on June 03, 2011, 11:32:30 am
[Text, links, pictures and other stuff here]
Go make some yourself :P However, I can agree about the sledge, it looks like it has no texture at all :P
And what the heck is wrong with the Sniper and Plasma rifle? Constructive critism or your post is as good as nothing. Alright, the plasma rifle looks a little too bland, but as Gray said - in-game zoom is the stuff.
Title: Re: Questions and Answers 3D (read the first post before asking a question)
Post by: Johnnybravo on June 03, 2011, 02:44:38 pm
Quote
You have forgotten about the in-game zoom. With proper zoom they will looks just as good as all others.
They will not, that's why textures deserve some love.
While you won't see any details in game, color and sharpness details will still be obvious at arbitary zoom level. And that's what is going to make difference between good or bad recreation of original game graphics.

Just to be fair, stuff like this: http://www.fo2238.fodev.net/wiki/File:Prifle_textured.png is completly fine and looks bad only because it's lacking much needed specular reflection, which has been highly abused in 90s.
On other hand stuff like CAWS and sledgehammer needs quite some love.
Title: Re: Questions and Answers 3D (read the first post before asking a question)
Post by: Gray on June 03, 2011, 04:19:12 pm
They will not, that's why textures deserve some love.
(http://img3.imageshack.us/img3/1628/sniperriflefake.png)(http://img151.imageshack.us/img151/7654/plasmariflefake.png)
Screens made in photoshop (I haven't neither 3D client nor time to make real ones), but it will lookls the same.
Title: Re: Questions and Answers 3D (read the first post before asking a question)
Post by: melcma on June 03, 2011, 04:58:37 pm
No problem. If you will provide us the original 3D models of that items - we shall replace them.You have forgotten about the in-game zoom. With proper zoom they will looks just as good as all others.I'm not certain... you want us to decrease animation quality just to make it looks like jerky 10-frames/sec original sprites? Smooth animation is too good for you?Try to search along the forum.

1. It seems that i was wrong. I hope that thumbnails will stay oryginal, when the new 3d models will look fine with characters.

3. Yea, this "jerky 10-frames/sec" IS FALLOUTISH

I have a request for someone. Take current 3d walking guy animation. Then cut frames to 15, then cut frames like oryginal fallout - i believe its 10-12 fps and show it all. Maybe im wrong, meybe not, just take a look.
Title: Re: Questions and Answers 3D (read the first post before asking a question)
Post by: Surf on June 03, 2011, 05:13:15 pm
I'd prefer the old wonky running animation as well. New one looks too smooth.
Title: Re: Questions and Answers 3D (read the first post before asking a question)
Post by: LagMaster on June 03, 2011, 06:04:40 pm
Progres does not mean replacing a bad ideea with a good ideea, it means replacing a bad ideea with other ideea that is whorst or as bad as the original one, but with something diferent

in this case 3D
Title: Re: Questions and Answers 3D (read the first post before asking a question)
Post by: Gray on June 03, 2011, 09:54:23 pm
Yea, this "jerky 10-frames/sec" IS FALLOUTISH
I'd prefer the old wonky running animation as well. New one looks too smooth.
I'm glad that fallout was at least in SVGA mode.
Title: Re: Questions and Answers 3D (read the first post before asking a question)
Post by: Johnnybravo on June 04, 2011, 02:00:45 am
(http://img3.imageshack.us/img3/1628/sniperriflefake.png)(http://img151.imageshack.us/img151/7654/plasmariflefake.png)
Screens made in photoshop (I haven't neither 3D client nor time to make real ones), but it will lookls the same.
You've just posted guns I said were ok :> (missing specular, which is more obvious when object is moving or rotating). And note how far from original PA 'textures' are. Try sledgehammer thing.
Quote
I'd prefer the old wonky running animation as well. New one looks too smooth.
Reminds me how I had a pause, and was wondering why the game is so choppy, somewhat later I realised it's not fault of my config...
Smooth anims are indeed welcome :<
Quote
3. Yea, this "jerky 10-frames/sec" IS FALLOUTISH
So Fallout intro is not "FALLOUTISH", okay...
Title: Re: Questions and Answers 3D (read the first post before asking a question)
Post by: Lexx on June 04, 2011, 08:26:20 am
As far as I know, this stuff is client side. So if someone wants to have 5 frames a minute, it should be possible as well.
Title: Re: Questions and Answers 3D (read the first post before asking a question)
Post by: Karpov on June 05, 2011, 11:43:14 pm
Yes Lexx, you can set it for animations, but sadly it does not affect the model transation in space; that is engine related. However, it only takes some time to get used to the high fps.
Title: Re: Questions and Answers 3D (read the first post before asking a question)
Post by: zamp on June 06, 2011, 09:42:10 am
I'm curious how are the armors set up in the client?
Do all armors have the body included in the model? If so; why?
All you really need to do is make sure armors have the same skeleton and they're weight painted properly.
This way you could just model the armors, weight paint them and that's it. No need to animate the armors themselves since they use the same skeleton = same animation.

Edit: Mod please move this post to the Q&A thread :)
Edit2: Or delete. I downloaded one of the armor models and yup they're separate alright :)
Title: Re: Questions and Answers 3D (read the first post before asking a question)
Post by: spears on June 06, 2011, 03:07:09 pm
Had a go at the caws but it came out a bit crap, the uv is really distorted which makes texturing it kinda hard. Il try again later.
Title: Re: Questions and Answers 3D (read the first post before asking a question)
Post by: Karpov on June 06, 2011, 07:53:26 pm
Zamp, the armors are managed exactly as you explain. There is one base model, a naked character, and the armors go attached to it, they share bones. Then there is a clothing texture that goes painted over the character's skin.
Title: Re: Questions and Answers 3D (read the first post before asking a question)
Post by: Gob on June 15, 2011, 02:44:12 pm
Question:

Will some armors include helmet without posbility to replace it?
Title: Re: Questions and Answers 3D (read the first post before asking a question)
Post by: Gray on June 15, 2011, 04:50:46 pm
Question:

Will some armors include helmet without posbility to replace it?
MB environmental armor?
Title: Re: Questions and Answers 3D (read the first post before asking a question)
Post by: Gob on June 15, 2011, 09:45:53 pm
But I see that you made helmet for it..
Title: Re: Questions and Answers 3D (read the first post before asking a question)
Post by: Karpov on June 16, 2011, 12:51:12 am
The helmet is part of the oxygen system, removing it would imply to take off the tanks on the back, and that would ruin the main purpose of the environmental armor. The rest of the helmets are in a separate layer and can be removed.
Title: Re: Questions and Answers 3D (read the first post before asking a question)
Post by: Gob on June 16, 2011, 06:49:33 am
Aha I understand now.
Title: Re: Questions and Answers 3D (read the first post before asking a question)
Post by: Johnnybravo on June 16, 2011, 08:03:17 pm
The helmet is part of the oxygen system, removing it would imply to take off the tanks on the back, and that would ruin the main purpose of the environmental armor. The rest of the helmets are in a separate layer and can be removed.
The same would be for power armors :<.

I don't like the idea of separating headgear from items which already had it on their sprites (robes, CA, PA), esp. as it will result in tutti frutti where people wear CA helmets to leather jacket or any other ridiculous combination.
Title: Re: Questions and Answers 3D (read the first post before asking a question)
Post by: LagMaster on June 16, 2011, 08:07:00 pm
some armors probably will have the 2 slot perk, that will make them be weareble without the hat
Title: Re: Questions and Answers 3D (read the first post before asking a question)
Post by: Crazy on June 16, 2011, 08:14:35 pm
I don't like the idea of separating headgear from items which already had it on their sprites (robes, CA, PA), esp. as it will result in tutti frutti where people wear CA helmets to leather jacket or any other ridiculous combination.

You won't see that. For the same reason that you don't see someone with a BA and a mauser : if you go for high gear, it's totally or it's a waste. Also, this is ugly, so nobody will wear those together if it doesn't look good.
Title: Re: Questions and Answers 3D (read the first post before asking a question)
Post by: Trias on June 16, 2011, 11:16:16 pm
You won't see that. For the same reason that you don't see someone with a BA and a mauser : if you go for high gear, it's totally or it's a waste. Also, this is ugly, so nobody will wear those together if it doesn't look good.

Heh you'd be surprised. Maybe not in combat because people want the max out of their equipment, but when people are chilling out at NCR or wherever if they can they will dress stupidly.
Title: Re: Questions and Answers 3D (read the first post before asking a question)
Post by: Opera on June 17, 2011, 02:39:37 pm
I have asked this once before, but is there any news about pixelating (like censored image (http://www.luv2help.com/m_videos/thumbs/censor.jpg) effect) the 3D models to make them fit more with the 2D environment? Has anyone tried making a shader like this?

3D models look great at the moment, but you can clearly see that they are too smooth. I think this would improve the look a lot.
Title: Re: Questions and Answers 3D (read the first post before asking a question)
Post by: Graf on June 17, 2011, 02:47:37 pm
It would be announced, once such feature is done.
Title: Re: Questions and Answers 3D (read the first post before asking a question)
Post by: Who Killed Bambi on June 20, 2011, 08:35:59 am
correct me if i m wrong.
i know this game not about stuff and kill, hide and seek, but:
is 3d models can be abused like - for example i make texture with 1 color - acid bright green color, then chenge fonline 3d textures in folder (this is not about how to doo that) and then i have item on ground and player models easy to see.
(like stuff at cave, leather armor for example (it can be any 3tier item) is hard to notice on ground. but with this *upgrage* hidden stuff or pc/npc can be noticed not in common way.
for example guy in ba with minigun is more dangerous than guy in leather jacket and spear. then i make textures of more *dangerous* items on player red and *weak* stuff - blue. so simple like name colorizing.
Title: Re: Questions and Answers 3D (read the first post before asking a question)
Post by: Luther Blissett on June 20, 2011, 09:24:31 am
I think you're right, as in that would be possible - and I can't think of a way which it could be stopped, unless there was a way of checking certain files when you log in. I'm not sure how much of a problem it would be generally though - I suppose it would decrease the value of "awareness", and I suppose it would save a few seconds in identifying the equipment of an opponent, which is probably quite a lot for people playing in real time.
Title: Re: Questions and Answers 3D (read the first post before asking a question)
Post by: Graf on June 20, 2011, 09:43:33 am
It's a downside of the engine - to store the most recently used files in the client folder. If it would be possible to store them on the server side, it would affect the prefomace in a bad way (and it require a really good machine and connection). Moreover, as Luther said, you can do this with 3D models, but you can do the same thing (and some more things, such as deleting certain tiles, which prevent you to see some hidden items) with 2D as well. I believe that some feature that's checking at least basic files to stay original have to be added at the later stage of development, because if it wouldn't, some players using this "feature" will get an advantage.
Title: Re: Questions and Answers 3D (read the first post before asking a question)
Post by: zamp on June 20, 2011, 10:23:47 am
It's not rocket science to assure files are correct. Just hash the files and ask the server if they're correct or not, if not redownload the faulty file.
This isn't a perfect fix to prevent that kind of cheating though as you could still swap files after the check has passed.
Title: Re: Questions and Answers 3D (read the first post before asking a question)
Post by: pistacja on June 20, 2011, 11:01:10 am
So let's say I'd make a custom 2048x2048 texture for a model I like (or a model with 10k polygons). It's far too big for some people with a bad gpu, but my machine can handle that, it has 0.0% chances of getting into the official release. If files are checked I could not use my custom texture.  You can have a custom interface so why not a custom model/texture? The advantage of having a red-coloured ba guy is (at least for me) insignificant. Besides, if anyone can colour the textures as they please, nobody has a real advantage.   
Title: Re: Questions and Answers 3D (read the first post before asking a question)
Post by: zamp on June 20, 2011, 11:07:11 am
Well the only thing that I think would be bad with replaced textures/models is the car key. No more hiding keys in bushes :(
Title: Re: Questions and Answers 3D (read the first post before asking a question)
Post by: Who Killed Bambi on June 20, 2011, 02:23:53 pm
i see point in hardcore file that used to stash all textures.
or *game guard*, that check files.
and maybe *.dll inside client that can work just by use some info from file with textures/(+3d model size?) or etc.
simple password at NOD32 (official nod32) ruin all my pc work once. but i think this guys use hardcore skills to make programm safety... but it can crash in windows anyway by stupid bug, and i bet people that develop game can be more *hardcore* then people that work for NOD... so i think u all can make simple solution that can work good.

windows can be hacked by kids with 115+ iq, or even 80+. just think about hacks to this file - way to get answer  :D

maybe some people that work for nod playing fonline, but this is my ideafix or truth :D

sorry for alot of text :)

So let's say I'd make a custom 2048x2048 texture for a model I like (or a model with 10k polygons). It's far too big for some people with a bad gpu, but my machine can handle that, it has 0.0% chances of getting into the official release. If files are checked I could not use my custom texture.  You can have a custom interface so why not a custom model/texture? The advantage of having a red-coloured ba guy is (at least for me) insignificant. Besides, if anyone can colour the textures as they please, nobody has a real advantage.
it can chek size or codes inside file... but i think programm can check image. and its very easy to make image with same size and color quantiny (256 or etc). and problem is - edit file and make it really look-like-same is not a big problem too.
maybe - jpg file use *text*, that used by soft. so image with 256 colors - 256x256 square for example and each square have own *text* so this is simple solution :D or it looks too simple  ;)

Use "modify" button next time/Graf.
Title: Re: Questions and Answers 3D (read the first post before asking a question)
Post by: Xarr on June 21, 2011, 09:00:28 pm
Anyone noticed that there are special Animations for not-orignal-fallout items, or other 'new' items needed?
The Brahmin shit can't be carried with one Hand, since it would fall out of all sides.
The Caravan Box to carry needs the Animation to hold it with both Hands (Or should it be not possible to take it in the Hand? :/ )
Yup, that's it.
Title: Re: Questions and Answers 3D (read the first post before asking a question)
Post by: LagMaster on June 22, 2011, 07:21:31 am
like ore, there will be a 2 hand carry animation to be made in the future, pay atention to the posts
Title: Re: Questions and Answers 3D (read the first post before asking a question)
Post by: zamp on June 22, 2011, 11:24:08 am
Anyone know of a good directx (.x) model viewer?
One that would emulate the game engine would be perfect. Would make making sure models work a shitload easier than using some tweaked client and console
Title: Re: Questions and Answers 3D (read the first post before asking a question)
Post by: Graf on June 22, 2011, 12:57:10 pm
Anyone know of a good directx (.x) model viewer?

This is what I'm using. It's pretty fast and have and intuitive interface - http://www.fragmosoft.com/
Title: Re: Questions and Answers 3D (read the first post before asking a question)
Post by: White150 on June 24, 2011, 12:55:33 pm
What is progress about models, animations and other stuff 3D?
Title: Re: Questions and Answers 3D (read the first post before asking a question)
Post by: Altairp on June 24, 2011, 01:50:53 pm
When the 3D will be released,we will start a new game?
Title: Re: Questions and Answers 3D (read the first post before asking a question)
Post by: Graf on June 24, 2011, 02:00:51 pm
What is progress about models, animations and other stuff 3D?

Check wiki's (in my signature) and the 3D development board latest topics.

When the 3D will be released,we will start a new game?

Yes, wipe is necessary to implement 3D, but it has nothing to do with the following wipe.
Title: Re: Questions and Answers 3D (read the first post before asking a question)
Post by: Altairp on June 24, 2011, 03:15:13 pm
So,my level 10 well armored player will disappear?
Title: Re: Questions and Answers 3D (read the first post before asking a question)
Post by: Surf on June 24, 2011, 03:22:16 pm
Yes.
Title: Re: Questions and Answers 3D (read the first post before asking a question)
Post by: Altairp on June 24, 2011, 03:23:09 pm
I can not go to 3D?
Title: Re: Questions and Answers 3D (read the first post before asking a question)
Post by: Surf on June 24, 2011, 03:32:15 pm
What? When the 3d files get implented on the server, everyone must start a new character because the game does not know how to  "transform" the 2d character you already use into a 3d one.
Title: Re: Questions and Answers 3D (read the first post before asking a question)
Post by: Lizard on June 24, 2011, 04:19:29 pm
Can a animated rig be inserted from one to another similar model?
Title: Re: Questions and Answers 3D (read the first post before asking a question)
Post by: Graf on June 24, 2011, 04:28:39 pm
Yes, all models which Karpov did, first were only available for male hero characters, which were later transformed to fir the female hero characters. So, it could be done to the other similar models.
Title: Re: Questions and Answers 3D (read the first post before asking a question)
Post by: Altairp on June 24, 2011, 04:36:42 pm
Will buildings be trasformed into 3D in a distant future?
Title: Re: Questions and Answers 3D (read the first post before asking a question)
Post by: Surf on June 24, 2011, 04:37:32 pm
No..
Title: Re: Questions and Answers 3D (read the first post before asking a question)
Post by: White150 on June 24, 2011, 06:03:51 pm
Why? Why we don't want to make 3D enviroment? Why?
Title: Re: Questions and Answers 3D (read the first post before asking a question)
Post by: Altairp on June 24, 2011, 06:06:32 pm
Because is a waste of time?  :)
Title: Re: Questions and Answers 3D (read the first post before asking a question)
Post by: Surf on June 24, 2011, 06:10:19 pm
Because the game is supposed to look as close to the original fallout games as possible. But this was all discussed before already and I advice you to use the search function before asking anything again.
Title: Re: Questions and Answers 3D (read the first post before asking a question)
Post by: Altairp on June 24, 2011, 06:54:17 pm
We could make actions such as sit, lie down ect...with the 3d system?
Title: Re: Questions and Answers 3D (read the first post before asking a question)
Post by: Graf on June 24, 2011, 07:38:58 pm
Oh my god. Is it really so difficult to read the first post of the topic where you're replying? It would answer almost all of your questions simultaneously. The answer to your question is YES, and this question is already answered in the FAQ.

Also, Altairp, do not overquote, it isn't allowed by the forum rules.
Title: Re: Questions and Answers 3D (read the first post before asking a question)
Post by: White150 on June 24, 2011, 08:18:05 pm
Okay but if we start making 3D elements, we can do enviroment too in the future. Why don't do this? We can do critters models now and example 1-2 years later make 3D all, not only for 2238 but for other games or servers based on fonline engine. This is 3D community which do all 3D stuff for all whole community fonline. 2D won't life forever, look now fonline servers aren't most popular. I think 3D will bring new players into fonline universe. Postworld-new Fallout (?) (http://fodev.net/forum/index.php?topic=16745.0) looks very nice.
Title: Re: Questions and Answers 3D (read the first post before asking a question)
Post by: Graf on June 24, 2011, 08:35:09 pm
Just face the fact, that there's no plans on 3D environment and that's it.
Title: Re: Questions and Answers 3D (read the first post before asking a question)
Post by: LagMaster on June 25, 2011, 09:50:37 am
awesome ideea wit hthe FAQ

also i will answer this question again: why we need 3D

Players whanted more diversity, like new hair stypes, new clowting, new races etc but the probplem was that for every race, for every clowth, for every hair stype we needed to do a lot of 2D spites for all animations, all weapons, all directions and to do that again with all armors
so for example, the use animation is, let's say 10 spites, there are 6 directions and 5 playeble armors(6 if you add CAmrk2) so that is allready 300-360 spites for 1 caracter, and i didn't added take on the floor(10spitesx6armors=60) the idle animation(10 spites x6 armors=60) and all the weapon animations( 6 types x (5 shot+ 10 iddle+ 5 doge) +5 melle x(5 trust+5swing+10 iddle) +10 trow nade+ 10 trow knife+10 trow spear=120+100+30=250) and running(10) is in total 360+120+250+10= allmoast 750 spites for 1 haircut, all done manualy

so 3D gives us a lot of freedon and alows us to save memory space, i mean the longhairdude is 20,9 MB, so imagine how it is if we stay with 2D

i personaly prefere 2D, but 3D will allow us more freedom on caracter creation that is all we need, 3D enviroment will not be implemented on 2238 server cuz is not neccesary

other thing: we do not make HQ models and textures cuz Lag will occur, that is why we are so ergonomic with the models
Title: Re: Questions and Answers 3D (read the first post before asking a question)
Post by: Altairp on June 25, 2011, 12:34:52 pm
Could we have a spit of date of the 3D's release?
Title: Re: Questions and Answers 3D (read the first post before asking a question)
Post by: zamp on June 25, 2011, 01:18:02 pm
Could we have a spit of date of the 3D's release?

It'll be released when its done.
Title: Re: Questions and Answers 3D (read the first post before asking a question)
Post by: Altairp on June 25, 2011, 01:27:11 pm
I love this kind of answers  :)
Title: Re: Questions and Answers 3D (read the first post before asking a question)
Post by: Luther Blissett on June 25, 2011, 01:45:41 pm
You can have a long answer too :)

I don't think anyone knows really - you could try and calculate a release date, perhaps, by looking at information, estimating time for each thing and adding everything together.

Firstly, look at the three trackers :
3D Graphics Development Tracker (http://www.fo2238.fodev.net/wiki/3d_graphics_development_tracker)
3D Armour Development Tracker (http://www.fo2238.fodev.net/wiki/3d_armors_development_tracker)
3D Misc Item Development Tracker (http://www.fo2238.fodev.net/wiki/3d_miscellaneous_items_development_tracker)

That's pretty much a list of everything that needs making, but it's only the first stage.
That's making :
1 ) All body types, and variable skin textures for each.
2 ) Armours and textures for all armour types, to fit all body types.
3 ) Making all carryable objects (e.g. weapons and any other object which can be held)

After that :
4 ) Each body type needs to be rigged to a skeleton, then needs all animations to be produced for it (i.e. run, walk, dodge, shoot, hit, use etc).
5 ) Every armour needs attaching to all body types, and if necessary, with extra animations attached to it (to fit to the animations of body types above, additionally, long clothing 'flying back' when a character runs etc).
6 ) Every object needs sizing, rotating and positioning in relation to the model, and attaching to relevant animations (i.e. how weapon is held in hand, which animations to use when firing or hitting).
7 ) A couple of hairstyles, to be attached to models, resized, repositioned and animated (i.e. long hair man's hair 'flies back' when a character runs).
8 ) Special gory death animations need to be produced. May involve models, animations, particle effects?
9 ) Creating inventory icons and "object on floor" models for any new content
10 ) Scripting / mapping work to replace current people and objects
11 ) Adjusting timings of animations (I'm pretty sure that currently, the shot is fired and enemy is damaged, before the "gun is raised and shot" animation is complete)
12 ) Any other models, animations or textures required to create an equivalent of what we already have - i.e. you can play the game exactly as you can now, except the characters are 3D instead of sprites.

At that point, maybe it will be implemented for testing?

Some other optional things, probably not essential to test it, but would need doing at some point :
13 ) A "pixellation shader" needs to be written, to make the 3D models look more like the original sprites.
14 ) The lighting and shadows on the 3D models needs adjusting - if you stand a 3D man next to his equivalent sprite, the shadows on the right side of arms / legs and underneath the chin etc aren't dark enough.
15 ) If possible, "shiny maps" for the textures. Shiny surfaces don't shine at the moment - so highlighting can only be painted on, which will look wrong from some angles.
16 ) Refining textures or models, to make them better. Ideally with the end result that the 3D model would look identical to it's original sprite (i.e. you could stand them next to each other, and not be able to tell which was which).

So... when I add all that up in my head, I can't come out with a better answer than 'soon' (http://fo2238.fodev.net/wiki/Soon) unfortunately. As annoying as that may sound, there's really too many factors to calculate anything more accurately than 'soon' (http://fo2238.fodev.net/wiki/Soon). Like all development on the game, it's done voluntarily, and people have school, or work, or 'fun and normal living' to do as well. It's done on those evenings where you say "Not tonight, dear" or "No, but I'll be out tomorrow night" or "It won't matter if that's done tomorrow instead".

One thing for certain however - we can definitely turn 'soon' (http://fo2238.fodev.net/wiki/Soon) into 'sooner' with some extra people helping out - even if it's the "boring stuff", it all helps.

Even for people who don't know 3D modelling or texturing so well, I think there's enough time to learn it, then become good enough to contribute something before we're all finished. People who know how to animate or rig models would probably be particularly useful, as currently every single model goes through Karpov, who despite personally managing to do the work of an entire factory himself, would probably appreciate some help from time to time. For people who don't want to learn such things, there's a lot of text files that need editing (all the guns need rotating correctly - this is literally just typing numbers in), or as always, suggestions, feedback, advice, thoughts etc are always useful.
Title: Re: Questions and Answers 3D (read the first post before asking a question)
Post by: Lexx on June 25, 2011, 08:08:20 pm
Just in case:
Quote
Question: Will sitting, laying, crawling and other animations of that kind will be added?
Answer: Yes, they are on to-do list

We will not add Fallout: Tactics movement like crouch-walking, etc. So if such animations will be implemented, it's only a kind of "emoticon" like waving hands and such.
Title: Re: Questions and Answers 3D (read the first post before asking a question)
Post by: Luther Blissett on July 02, 2011, 04:22:10 pm
Is there any way to "refresh" textures in the SDK, without having to quit and restart? Would help a lot with the "check texture in game, adjust texture, save texture, check texture in game" sort of thing.
Title: Re: Questions and Answers 3D (read the first post before asking a question)
Post by: Graf on July 02, 2011, 04:52:02 pm
As far as I know -  no, there's no such thing. At least, in the revisions older than ~170. I've always had to close the client and launch it again, when I've been working on a tribal texture as well as my old combat interface. I have to ask Cvet though. Sadly he's too busy lately.
Title: Re: Questions and Answers 3D (read the first post before asking a question)
Post by: Cryptopsy on July 05, 2011, 10:54:51 pm
How many armors and all do we have made so far?

Is there a thread with a count or list on how many are done as of yet?
Title: Re: Questions and Answers 3D (read the first post before asking a question)
Post by: Haraldx on July 05, 2011, 11:29:13 pm
How many armors and all do we have made so far?

Is there a thread with a count or list on how many are done as of yet?
Check Graf's 3D armor tracker.
Title: Re: Questions and Answers 3D (read the first post before asking a question)
Post by: Bartosz on July 11, 2011, 03:06:39 pm
Is there any way to "refresh" textures in the SDK, without having to quit and restart? Would help a lot with the "check texture in game, adjust texture, save texture, check texture in game" sort of thing.

I must admit I've never tried it, but you could try some 3d debug/perf monitor applications that allow you to look into your video device content during application runtime, and manipulate the resources loaded there:

Title: Re: Questions and Answers 3D (read the first post before asking a question)
Post by: barter1113 on July 16, 2011, 10:29:19 am
Can someone explain to me what's going on with the second model of the APA? For me, the old model was perfect. I hope no one plans to throw out the first model of the APA. Perhaps this new model will be used as the APA MK2? Please clarify because I have no idea what is going on :(
Title: Re: Questions and Answers 3D (read the first post before asking a question)
Post by: Graf on July 16, 2011, 11:01:54 am
If we will have a better texture for the new model, then most likely both models will be used (Gray's version for mk1 and the Darin's one for mk2). I personally like the old model better, but it's always good to have some diversity. Also, please note, that no power armor model will be widely available to public, so you most likely will see it on the Enclave encounters and in Navarro only.
Title: Re: Questions and Answers 3D (read the first post before asking a question)
Post by: barter1113 on July 16, 2011, 11:19:51 am
but as will now be able to use two types of models of APA using sdk? The new model is not bad, but I agree with you - first it looks very beautiful. Thank you for your reply. I have another question, as we are working on other models 3d? Is someone doing something or nothing happens? Recently, I have not seen any updates on the wikia.
Title: Re: Questions and Answers 3D (read the first post before asking a question)
Post by: Graf on July 16, 2011, 01:58:50 pm
Yes, you'll be able to use both models in your SDK (if it will be finished) and yes, there's some ongoing progress. I advise you to check the topics and wiki more throughly, to get news about all updates. But I have to say, that large part of the people are less active during the summer time, so we are doing less progress in general, than in other seasons. Still, we are moving to the finishing point, rather than just idling until some people reappear.
Title: Re: Questions and Answers 3D (read the first post before asking a question)
Post by: Senrain on July 23, 2011, 09:46:40 am
Forgive me if this has already been asked but I wanted to know if 3D models will affect my ability to play the game.

I noticed Rats and Ants are in 3d and whenever I go into aiming mode. (Pressing A) I get a lot of lag, I've been told that it's just a glitch and will be fixed but I just wanted to confirm this.
Title: Re: Questions and Answers 3D (read the first post before asking a question)
Post by: Graf on July 23, 2011, 12:38:39 pm
Is it a lag (latency of the server response to your actions) or the FPS drop? Anyway, Fonline 2238 server and client is currently pretty much outdated, so if you experience some problems it may be fixed after next update.
Title: Re: Questions and Answers 3D (read the first post before asking a question)
Post by: Haraldx on July 23, 2011, 12:43:55 pm
Noticed it on my old computer too.
2D critters only: 60fps
3D critters and or no 2D critters: 50fps
3D critters only after pressing A: 25 fps
3D critters with 2D critters: 20 fps
Title: Re: Questions and Answers 3D (read the first post before asking a question)
Post by: Johnnybravo on July 23, 2011, 01:21:00 pm
Noticed it on my old computer too.
2D critters only: 60fps
3D critters and or no 2D critters: 50fps
3D critters only after pressing A: 25 fps
3D critters with 2D critters: 20 fps
I've heard about FPS issues with highlights as well. Not that I've encountered them myself though.
Maybe you could've post your VS/PS versions and Fonline Settings?
Title: Re: Questions and Answers 3D (read the first post before asking a question)
Post by: Haraldx on July 23, 2011, 01:27:21 pm
My old computer was like this:
Windows XP Service pack 3
1,5gb RAM
2,8Ghz single core processor
Nvidia 6200 256 mb vRAM

FOnline settings (haven't changed anything since I got a new computer)
(http://img402.imageshack.us/img402/6268/clipboard01gaz.jpg) (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/402/clipboard01gaz.jpg/)
Title: Re: Questions and Answers 3D (read the first post before asking a question)
Post by: Graf on July 23, 2011, 02:45:05 pm
Just set Multisampling to "off" and performance would be significantly increased. This is not only related to 3D, but to 2D as well.
Title: Re: Questions and Answers 3D (read the first post before asking a question)
Post by: Haraldx on July 23, 2011, 03:36:27 pm
What is multisampling anyway? There are (almost) no fps drops on my new computer tho.
Title: Re: Questions and Answers 3D (read the first post before asking a question)
Post by: Graf on July 23, 2011, 04:33:17 pm
What is multisampling anyway?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multisample_anti-aliasing
Title: Re: Questions and Answers 3D (read the first post before asking a question)
Post by: runboy93 on July 23, 2011, 04:54:30 pm
I got game fast working when i chosen Disable option for Multisampling and Texture size same as my Craphics card memory (512)
I don't know sure though about that texture size.
Title: Re: Questions and Answers 3D (read the first post before asking a question)
Post by: Deicide on July 24, 2011, 11:23:01 pm
As far as character customization goes in the new 3d engine, will it be like tactics, where you can choose hair color, etc?
Title: Re: Questions and Answers 3D (read the first post before asking a question)
Post by: Haraldx on July 24, 2011, 11:36:05 pm
As far as character customization goes in the new 3d engine, will it be like tactics, where you can choose hair color, etc?
Yes, it is just like having the same hair model and just apply it a different colored texture.
Title: Re: Questions and Answers 3D (read the first post before asking a question)
Post by: Deicide on July 25, 2011, 02:12:42 am
Yes, it is just like having the same hair model and just apply it a different colored texture.

Would it be at all possible to maybe have a create a character such as the attempt from Van Buren? The facial hair additive was really nice.

(I love create a characters, if you cant tell. haha)
Title: Re: Questions and Answers 3D (read the first post before asking a question)
Post by: Luther Blissett on July 25, 2011, 03:21:57 am
I believe so, yes.

This is character screen in Fonline SDK (3D enabled ones), with 2238 3D Dev stuff pasted in it :
(http://img269.imageshack.us/img269/7286/charscreencopy.png)
(White writing is what I imagine it WILL DO, not necessarily what it does now)

As this currently works, there is the "hero" (normal Fallout character) body type, and you can select "big dreadlocks" or "normal Fallout" hair for male, and "normal" for female ('Bob hair' is selectable by in-game command). Normal hair is available in a variety of colours. There's a range of different skin colours with or without tattoos for the male character.

I'd imagine it'd be like this (or similar) - with the body type selection picking from the normal, strong, hero, fat etc, and the other buttons working as you'd expect. I'm not sure how clearly facial hair would show up at "normal size" in game, but there's the possibility to either a) reposition / reshape the Van Buren ones and use them or b) Make some new ones.

Anyway, I do hope we can have a beard option.
Title: Re: Questions and Answers 3D (read the first post before asking a question)
Post by: Deicide on July 25, 2011, 10:19:36 am
Anyway, I do hope we can have a beard option.

You and me both, brother.
Title: Re: Questions and Answers 3D (read the first post before asking a question)
Post by: Senocular on July 25, 2011, 11:59:19 am
I've got one question.

Will body type be linked to any abilities? Like if you are fat you run slower but you get bonus DR? Or if you are a dwarf you also run slower but you get AC bonus (smaller target)? I think it would make sense.
Title: Re: Questions and Answers 3D (read the first post before asking a question)
Post by: LagMaster on July 25, 2011, 06:50:22 pm
yeah, and if you are a ghoul your str and ch will be limited, but you can go over 10 with PE,Int, no?

or SM have bonus to DR/DT but have limited CH/Int

and why not racial traints(for all, including dwarf and junkys
Title: Re: Questions and Answers 3D (read the first post before asking a question)
Post by: Haraldx on July 25, 2011, 07:02:52 pm
yeah, and if you are a ghoul your str and ch will be limited, but you can go over 10 with PE,Int, no?

or SM have bonus to DR/DT but have limited CH/Int

and why not racial traints(for all, including dwarf and junkys
Source? Devs have said there will be playable races when 3D era comes, but they didn't mention anything about stat changes or anything.
Title: Re: Questions and Answers 3D (read the first post before asking a question)
Post by: LagMaster on July 25, 2011, 07:12:12 pm
it was a sugestion and a question at the same time
Title: Re: Questions and Answers 3D (read the first post before asking a question)
Post by: Senocular on July 25, 2011, 08:28:18 pm
Source? Devs have said there will be playable races when 3D era comes, but they didn't mention anything about stat changes or anything.
Isn't it obvious that ghouls have different abilities? Solar said numerous times different races will be available along 3D era.
Title: Re: Questions and Answers 3D (read the first post before asking a question)
Post by: Lizard on July 26, 2011, 07:57:35 pm
Does the original skeleton looks anything like this?
(http://img42.imageshack.us/img42/1442/projections.jpg) (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/42/projections.jpg/)
Title: Re: Questions and Answers 3D (read the first post before asking a question)
Post by: Luther Blissett on July 26, 2011, 08:17:24 pm
I'm not sure to be honest. I can't quite see some of the finer details on the one you've shown there.

I have the one from the DirectX file (CR_HumanMaleStrong.X) looking like this :
(http://img695.imageshack.us/img695/3036/xmanskeletonscopy.png)
- note the fingers, toes, "hair bone" and "dick bone".

This appeared to work with the existing animations that I tested, so I'd assume it's pretty much correct - though it could easily be one of those "this program interprets it wrong" conversion things.

Title: Re: Questions and Answers 3D (read the first post before asking a question)
Post by: Lizard on July 26, 2011, 11:13:43 pm
Well, i added some invisible mover bones in front and back of the torso as well as the feet. (IK targets)
Didn't knew about hair bone and finger bones as well, added it afterwards. Thanks, Luther.

(http://img29.imageshack.us/img29/788/rig1n.jpg) (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/29/rig1n.jpg/)

Do the .X format keep the parent/children connections or should the bones be explicitely connected via extrusion?
Title: Re: Questions and Answers 3D (read the first post before asking a question)
Post by: Luther Blissett on July 27, 2011, 02:13:31 am
Have you reconstructed a skeleton based on the original one? I wonder whether we should try and convert the original one (.x format) into a more readily usable format? (at least until Karpov appears to tell us how he was managing to do everything).

I have one program which seems to understand the .x files from the 2238 3D SDK - Fragmotion (http://www.fragmosoft.com/) - which is sort of free (it continually asks you to buy the full version, but appears to work otherwise). I've found nothing else (of cheap/shareware/freeware) that seems to interpret them correctly - though I have a suspicion that 3DS Max might be able to.

Anyway, if I can import it into this program, and it looks right, I can export it into something else - maybe something a bit more standard, that could work in max or blender or something.

Is there another more widely used format which I could export it to, which would allow people to start doing test work on? Obj won't take bones data, but I think 3DS will. Would it take enough correct data to allow people to start constructing or testing extra poses and animations, or would the slight format difference end up causing more trouble than help?
Title: Re: Questions and Answers 3D (read the first post before asking a question)
Post by: Lizard on July 27, 2011, 12:38:23 pm
I posted here (http://fodev.net/forum/index.php?topic=13929.135) a .blend file, which is also quite common, with a short manual for posing. It would be cool if you can post it in both .blend and .3ds.
It's handy in Blender, you can just define the first and last keyframes with A+A+I+LocRotScale and it computes the animation in between, when you start the animation, you just have to adjust the "keyframes", if the automatic animation looks not as you wanted.
It should suffice for test work and Blender is free. However, currently, only Blender 2.49 can export/import .X files.

The IK constraints i put in the legs of the model are also handy for posing since you can grab and move the ankle and see the whole leg bend in appropriate direction, instead of adjusting every single bone. The arms needs them, too.

In the end, we should be able to convert everything back to .X, which program does it best, we should test out.
Title: Re: Questions and Answers 3D (read the first post before asking a question)
Post by: Jotisz on July 27, 2011, 12:46:56 pm
Nice job there Lizard I will use this armature instead the one I made for the ghoul btw if Luther can get the original into blender and max with the bone poses then we should work with those after all editing the existing work will be easier.
About the IKs a nice move there it could give some help to those who never tried animating and they could try too maybe someone has a hidden talent for that.
Title: Re: Questions and Answers 3D (read the first post before asking a question)
Post by: pistacja on July 28, 2011, 10:23:03 am
.3ds has no support for bones or skining. Use (open) Collada .dae format or .max if you must (but .max is version dependant).
Title: Re: Questions and Answers 3D (read the first post before asking a question)
Post by: Luther Blissett on July 31, 2011, 02:45:20 am
These plugins for 3ds max will work with the type of X file currently used for Fonline 3D stuff.
Direct X importer for 3ds Max (http://mofo.pns.to/wibs/#5)

Regarding blender, heres a bunch of stuff in a .zip file
http://www.megaupload.com/?d=G68IZS92 (http://www.megaupload.com/?d=G68IZS92)

There's two .blend files. One has just the skeleton in, one has a person roughly placed over the skeleton, but it's not all linked together or anything. There's a couple of original animation files in there, converted into bvh, which blender seems to read quite happily.

However, note that I'm not entirely convinced that the skeleton has imported / exported properly. The shape is correct, but it doesn't seem to be linked together properly. Also note that the size, orientation and positioning is probably a bit messed up.

Anyway, it might be useful for one of you guys to look at / repair / work on etc. Lizard - if you can make some use of these bits, then do your magic with it, then we might be well on the way to being able to rig and animate the rest of the models. As Jotisz said, if we can tweak the existing animations using something like the original skeleton, it will all be much quicker.

Title: Re: Questions and Answers 3D (read the first post before asking a question)
Post by: Weasel on August 02, 2011, 10:09:15 am
Hi, I'm new to this game, forum and the FOnline SDK, I am having trouble with the 3D APA. whenever I try to equip it using the "~additemself 348 (or 349) 1" console command it gives me a suit of normal Power Armour instead, while still using the inventory symbol for the APA. I've looked everywhere for a solution, including the FOnline.ru forums, and I can't find anything. I have also tried using the "~run debug setcrittparam x xxx x" command as well with no luck. I placed the 3D models in the data/art/critters folder and the textures in the data/textures folder, have I missed anything? I have been playing/testing the 3D models on my own server(created through the use of the SDK server tutorials) could this be part of the problem?

Also, sorry if this is posted in the wrong area.(the first post said this was the place to ask about the 3D models, etc.)
Title: Re: Questions and Answers 3D (read the first post before asking a question)
Post by: Graf on August 02, 2011, 10:53:06 am
Hello and welcome to the Fonline 2238 forum.

I have to say, that none of the armors would work via "additemself" as they aren't yet attached to each other. So the only way to use it so far is the console command. If you've put the files into the correct folder, then you've probably missed the console command that gives you admin rights (you should set it in FOnlineServer.cfg file). Another problem might be, is that you didn't enabled the 3d models in the engine (this feature is disabled by default). To enable it, go to SDK\Server\scripts\_defines.fos and delete "//" sign before the "define PLAYERS_3D"

Title: Re: Questions and Answers 3D (read the first post before asking a question)
Post by: Weasel on August 02, 2011, 11:22:30 am
Thanks for the welcome (and the quick reply). I solved part of the problem, the second command I used (~run debug SetCritParam x xxx x) was either spelled incorrectly or was in the wrong case(not in caps). I used the command shown in this post: http://fodev.net/forum/index.php?topic=14217.msg120580#msg120580 , but couldn't change from the leather armour(this is the armour that appeared, not the combat armour that I was expecting after reading that post). I am assuming that the sequence of 3 x's refers to the PID of the armour, meaning that for the APA it would be 348/9 is this correct? Because I tried that while using a different value for the final 'x' and saw no change other than the idle animation for the character would restart.
Title: Re: Questions and Answers 3D (read the first post before asking a question)
Post by: Luther Blissett on August 02, 2011, 06:14:27 pm
If you don't have admin access yet, go to FOnlineServer.cfg in Server folder and add this at the end :
Code: [Select]
Access_admin=password
Then, in game :
Code: [Select]
~getaccess admin password
Should say "access changed".

These are the parameter adjust things
param 0 150 x (skin tone, from # Skin section of FOHuman file)
param 0 151 x (object in hand, from # Right Handle section of FOHuman file)
param 0 152 x (object in hand, from # Left Handle section of FOHuman file)
param 0 153 x (armour number, from # Body section of FOHuman file)
param 0 154 x (helmet / hat number from # Head section of FOHuman file)
param 0 155 x (clothes number, from # ArmorClothing section of FOHuman file )

The zero is probably the character ID. Not certain on that, but by default, 0 will change things on the player.
Setting x to -1 will disable the layer / set it to nothing.
Setting x to any number will apply the relevant armour / skin / clothing from the "_FOHuman.fo3d" file.

Example :
~param 0 153 6
~param 0 154 6
Power armour and helmet
~param 0 153 9
~param 0 154 9
Advanced Power Armour and helmet

Numbers are stored in here :
[...]\Client\data\art\critters\_FOHuman.fo3d

Hope that makes sense.
Title: Re: Questions and Answers 3D (read the first post before asking a question)
Post by: Weasel on August 03, 2011, 10:40:18 am
Ah, yes it does make more sense to me now. However I tried '~param 0 153 9' and '~run debug SetCritParam 0 153 9' both of which just made my character naked... I even re-downloaded the SDK and it didn't work, I think that I'll just get to know the current build for now. Thank you all for your help.

P.S. - Does the line 'Value 9 Root DisableSubset 0-1-2-3-4-5-6-7-8 Attach Armor_APA.x' have anything to do with why it may not be working? Because the Power Armour didn't work either and it has the same subsets disabled.
Title: Re: Questions and Answers 3D (read the first post before asking a question)
Post by: barter1113 on August 03, 2011, 11:00:05 am
What is the progress of work on models?
When will update revision?
How can I help? My suggestions are unlikely to be taken into the game so how can I help?
What the hell are shaders? Can someone explain me what models ook like when shaders will be completed?
Title: Re: Questions and Answers 3D (read the first post before asking a question)
Post by: SmartCheetah on August 03, 2011, 02:47:35 pm
What is the progress of work on models?
When will update revision?
How can I help? My suggestions are unlikely to be taken into the game so how can I help?
What the hell are shaders? Can someone explain me what models ook like when shaders will be completed?
Graf or someone else made few very nice summaries, and I believe we'll get one in next few weeks after more things will come to an end.

Shaders are ummm...shaders :P In very easy words: Programs which enable us to use lighting/shadow/mirror/shine effects on our models. All in all it makes everything to look a lot better(And with use of those, we can easily make lighting effects from minigun/flamethrower and stuff like that on character/enviroment)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nvIpyEXjdYU
Here you have nice comparison how much they could change.

Or have you played The Elder Scrolls III: Morrowind? Just look what people have done to it with use of improved models/textures/sounds/grass and shaders:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-RM28MfDH5w

That should give you general idea what shaders are used for.
Title: Re: Questions and Answers 3D (read the first post before asking a question)
Post by: Luther Blissett on August 03, 2011, 05:04:35 pm
Ah, yes it does make more sense to me now. However I tried '~param 0 153 9' and '~run debug SetCritParam 0 153 9' both of which just made my character naked... I even re-downloaded the SDK and it didn't work, I think that I'll just get to know the current build for now. Thank you all for your help.

P.S. - Does the line 'Value 9 Root DisableSubset 0-1-2-3-4-5-6-7-8 Attach Armor_APA.x' have anything to do with why it may not be working? Because the Power Armour didn't work either and it has the same subsets disabled.

Very odd. When I've got a bit more time (a week or two), I might upload "my working copy" of the SDK somewhere, i.e. whole client / server / FO3D SDK / my additions / alterations etc. That should help a bit with testing, for you and other people. I'd need to clear some of the rubbish / half broken test bits out first though - and I've got a lot of work on at the moment. If you don't see anything in a few weeks, then remind me :)
Title: Re: Questions and Answers 3D (read the first post before asking a question)
Post by: Weasel on August 04, 2011, 08:09:32 am
Ok, thank you very much, I look forward to it. I'm sure it will help a lot! (and not only me!)
Title: Re: Questions and Answers 3D (read the first post before asking a question)
Post by: Johnny Nuclear on August 10, 2011, 03:33:53 pm
This 3D era is realy inevitable ?  :( :(
Title: Re: Questions and Answers 3D (read the first post before asking a question)
Post by: Johnnybravo on August 10, 2011, 05:46:14 pm
Considering there's still no ETA I wouldn't be that much worried about it.

It is still possible to make 3D look nearly the same as old 2D, and the fact is that more than 50% of computers have DX10+ hardware, so apart from laoding time increases not much should change.

However in current state it is really more or less useless, materials are ugly, animations are still missing and there's still no shader to change rendered models to Fallout pallette.

I'd be however disapointed if all of death animations were 3D (flame death, electrical death, burst death and plasma death are still not reproducable with resources that this community have).

Pokud by to bylo v podobnem stavu jako ted, tak to nebude Fallout ale lacina 200x hra :<.
Title: Re: Questions and Answers 3D (read the first post before asking a question)
Post by: Grommok on August 24, 2011, 12:52:30 pm
Ok, since all the work is community made, can i (with the proper permissions from the dev-mods-original autors) use them in a project of mine (both an eventual, even if VERY unwilling to be done in a short time, Van Buren Restoration Project, or some other single-player project)?
Title: Re: Questions and Answers 3D (read the first post before asking a question)
Post by: Graf on August 24, 2011, 01:27:20 pm
We esteem every author's opinion and generally following the creative commons licence (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Creative_Commons_licenses). So, once everything is done, all work will be made public, unless some author forbids the use of their work somewhere except 2238 server. But I doubt that this will happen, so most likely you'll be able to use all work, by not forgetting to follow simple rules.

But if you ask me, I personally don't like the idea to giving out stuff to everyone, without of even speaking to person, and discussing where's he going to use it. Best is to give it out to people that actually need it, to be sure that it wouldn't be used in a projects, that doesn't deserve it. Well, it's just my opinion though.
Title: Re: Questions and Answers 3D (read the first post before asking a question)
Post by: Surf on August 24, 2011, 01:35:32 pm
We esteem every author's opinion and generally following the creative commons licence (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Creative_Commons_licenses). So, once everything is done, all work will be made public, unless some author forbids the use of their work somewhere except 2238 server. But I doubt that this will happen, so most likely you'll be able to use all work, by not forgetting to follow simple rules.


Agreed on your points, but the bolded part won't work as all the files neccesary will be in the client and everyone can just take them without even saying anything (yes, there are people lacking respect doing something like that..) The original author in this case couldn't do anything to pretend it, so I hope most of the people here are good sports and actually ask before they take anything for their own stuff.
Title: Re: Questions and Answers 3D (read the first post before asking a question)
Post by: Lexx on August 24, 2011, 02:14:08 pm
Well, you have this problem with everything that was created and released.
Title: Re: Questions and Answers 3D (read the first post before asking a question)
Post by: Grommok on August 24, 2011, 03:40:40 pm
Well, thanks. Right now i wont do anything, i'm still lookin' fir all the needed tools (even if i've already got an engine, the FIFE (http://wiki.fifengine.de/), deveploved exacly for that kinda stuff). I'm gonna do this project with some friends, and the fact that we dont have to make all the models from scratch helps us alot.  Thanks for responding so fast and in a so precise way.
Title: Re: Questions and Answers 3D (read the first post before asking a question)
Post by: Luther Blissett on August 24, 2011, 04:39:47 pm
It may be worth discussing and making a decision on work ownership / commons licensing and applying it to all works made from this point, and checking if it can be applied to all previous (i.e. putting a notice to say "If you contribute a model, it is under this licence, unless you specifically say otherwise) - because there's going to be a lot of crossover on single characters.

Think if you have a "fat man" with a leather armour and an assault rifle - that might be :

Original model - Karpov
Adjusted model - Jotisz
Adjusted UV map - Luther Blissett
Original Skeleton - Karpov
Adjusted skeleton - ?
Animations - possibly several people
Skin - SmartCheetah
Hair - ?
Leather armour - Ztormi
Adjusted leather armour - Graf
Skeleton for original leather armour - Karpov
Adjusted skeleton for armour - ?
Shader effects - Johnnybravo
Improved post-shader textures - ?
Assault Rifle - Elmehdi & Gray
Weapon animations - Karpov
etc etc etc

I will have missed some off there, and of course there's all the people who have checked, managed, organised, uploaded, coordinated, suggested, advised, then there's those who made 2238 exist in the first place etc etc. Some of this info may be wrong, but as an example, you can see how you're going to end up with lots of people for the equivalent of a single repainted FO sprite.

So if I say "anything I've worked on is free for anyone to use", it's almost meaningless without agreement from the other 10-20 people - or if I was to say "I forbid my work to be used" for some reason, even though I'd only contributed the smallest amount to the final model, it could mean that it couldn't be used.

I think it'd be good for the Fallout / Fonline community as a whole if these did become available to everyone at some point (and personally, I'd love to see this stuff used in as many projects as possible) - though it'd be nice to be credited for this as well - though that also gives a further question of whether it would simply be "2238 3D Development Team", which would link to a full list of contributors, or whether each texture / model would be individually credited etc.
Title: Re: Questions and Answers 3D (read the first post before asking a question)
Post by: LagMaster on August 24, 2011, 05:22:11 pm
i have a question that will answer the dilema above

does anyone have legitimit softwhere that help them to create this models?
Title: Re: Questions and Answers 3D (read the first post before asking a question)
Post by: Luther Blissett on August 24, 2011, 05:58:01 pm
I can't see how this answers the above dilemma exactly, but regardless, in answer to your question - I personally believe you can get from "nothing" to "a model in game" using :

1)
Modelling : Wings3D (free, open source)
Texturing : Gimp (free, open source)
Rigging : Fragmotion (can be used continually in trial mode)

or
2)
Modelling and rigging : Blender (free, open source)
Texturing : Gimp (free, open source).

There are likely other options, of course. You'll also need notepad / gedit / notepad++ etc, as text editor.

Note that the rigging stuff (via #1) still needs a little further research and testing to make sure it's 100% compatible. I think the armour IS working, but the body type rigging needs a bit further work. I'll be putting a tutorial up about this method once I a) get it working properly and b) it's been checked to make sure it's correct.

It will be possible via Blender, but we'll need to prepare some template files first, and do some experimenting with methods and file formats.
Title: Re: Questions and Answers 3D (read the first post before asking a question)
Post by: Graf on August 24, 2011, 06:07:51 pm
I think most of us (if not everyone) are working with open-source/shareware/trial software. I'll point which the most popular of them:

- Autodesk 3ds Max, Maya, Softimage - Commercial, but it was made free for non-commercial use not so long ago;
- Blender - completely free modelling and animating software;
- Fragmosoft Fragmotion - free if you're following some simple rules;
- Wings 3D - completely free for any purpose;
- Google SketchUP - free (PRO version is commercial, though);
- Zbrush - commercial, but I've never seen anyone using it here;

- Adobe Photoshop - commercial, but trial can be used;
- GIMP - free;
- Paint.NET - free;
etc...

So as you can see, it's quite hard to find a graphics software, that should to be bought before use. If you want to say, that these works are created in a pirated software - you're wrong. If you want to say that all that work belongs to the software owners - you're wrong again. I think it should be quite clear now.

Update: well, I've pretty much said the same thing as Luther did.
Title: Re: Questions and Answers 3D (read the first post before asking a question)
Post by: jangling on September 09, 2011, 05:15:49 am
seems like you guys are doing 3D for a few critters
Just curious as why critters need 3D models. (such as gecko or brahmin)
Title: Re: Questions and Answers 3D (read the first post before asking a question)
Post by: Graf on September 09, 2011, 11:05:24 am
With the new 3D critters it would be much easier to add a new types of critters, e.g. bigger/smaller/different colored creatures. Plus to this, it just won't look right, if everyone else, except them will be 3D and they will stay 2D. Though don't expect them to appear right after the basic 3D is implemented. Almost every critter has a unique animation set and a model, which requires a bunch of work.
Title: Re: Questions and Answers 3D (read the first post before asking a question)
Post by: baaelSiljan on September 10, 2011, 01:20:56 pm
there is Sculptris also - free alternative for Zbrush from same company
Title: Re: Questions and Answers 3D (read the first post before asking a question)
Post by: Haraldx on September 10, 2011, 08:29:18 pm
there is Sculptris also - free alternative for Zbrush from same company
High-poly stuff. Not really what we need now.
Title: Re: Questions and Answers 3D (read the first post before asking a question)
Post by: baaelSiljan on September 11, 2011, 02:45:34 am
not really, it is very helpful with textures and body shape (even low poly), some people can find it handy and more natural than moving vertexes.


Title: Re: Questions and Answers 3D (read the first post before asking a question)
Post by: Luther Blissett on September 23, 2011, 03:39:08 pm
[...]When I've got a bit more time (a week or two), I might upload "my working copy" of the SDK somewhere, i.e. whole client / server / FO3D SDK / my additions / alterations etc. That should help a bit with testing, for you and other people.

Sorry about the delay with this.

I've been putting these files together for use in imminent tutorials, then remembered I'd said about uploading a "snapshot" of my client with some of the models in. This should contain the main 3D repo up until today (23rd September 2011) though with a few changes, and also included some of my test files. Note that it's a right mess. It includes all my "work in progress", so that includes a few badly rigged models, temporary textures and armour values which lead to nothing (so will appear transparent). Expect problems.

The tutorials, with full explanation of how to set everything up are still being written, but if you've previously read through the 3D repository (http://fodev.net/forum/index.php?topic=14217.0) threads, you should know what you're doing enough to work with these. If it's all too confusing, I should have the first draft version of the "Setting up a 3D compatible client" tutorial written over the weekend. That should be pretty "step by step" straightforward. That'll be followed by ones for basic rigging and understanding some of the files, so hopefully will allow more people to test / implement stuff.

Old Fonline Client (works with 3D stuff)
http://www.fonline.ru/files/FOnline_v2_200111.zip (http://www.fonline.ru/files/FOnline_v2_200111.zip)

Snapshot of my 3D test repo

http://www.megaupload.com/?d=RYF2TGL6 (http://www.megaupload.com/?d=RYF2TGL6)

Extra dat files required
(can also be acquired by running updater.exe in client folder)
http://www.megaupload.com/?d=B9WDN8EN (http://www.megaupload.com/?d=B9WDN8EN)

Unzip the client to whatever folder you like. Unzip the test repo, and copy the files over (paste over the client folder, and they'll add to it). Unzip the dat files into the root client folder, or let the updater handle these.

You'll need to change :
client\fonline.cfg
set the lines for master.dat and critter.dat, like you have in the 2238 equivalent.

At top of fonline.cfg, set the language to preference :
Language=russ or Language=engl

server\FOnlineServer.cfg
scroll to bottom and add password to admin :
Access_admin=password (use whatever password you like)

Then run the Fonline Single Player shortcut from the client folder.

To use the commands, you'll need to write :
~getaccess admin password (password as defined above)

Then use commands as described in the 3D repository (http://fodev.net/forum/index.php?topic=14217.0) thread. Please read through all of this.

You'll need to disable layers 163 and 164 to allow the "armourclothing" layer to work.
There's two savegames in there, one of male and one of female wearing leather jackets.

If you check through \Client\data\art\critters\_FOHuman.fo3d (open in notepad or equivalent), you should be able to work out which values you will need to check a particular armour / clothing item.

Note that most of my newer test stuff does not include female versions yet. Also note that anything I've added (mostly in clothing / armour values of 19 and above) is very much "work in progress" and not part of the main repo, as most of it needs repairing or improving. Skin layer (150) with a value of 30 will give the "orange" skin tone tested here (http://fodev.net/forum/index.php?topic=13877.msg154513#msg154513).

Also note that these files will clash with any updates to the main SVN one, though currently everything from there should be included in here.


[edit]
Completely unrelated question :

What is the difference between :
~run debug SetCritParam 1 153 13
and
~param 0 153 13
(the 153 and 13 bits being sort of irrelevant, same for any other layer or value)

Both of these would change the armour (layer 153) to type 13, and both would do it to the player character (though one has "0" and one has "1").

I've always used the "~param 0" version, but the advice in the 3D Model Repository thread mentions using the "~run debug SetCritParam" one. Any thoughts?
Title: Re: Questions and Answers 3D (read the first post before asking a question)
Post by: Sunstroke[RUS] on October 02, 2011, 04:27:29 pm
I have 3D model in  3D studio max how me it to convert in   .х without skeleton loss?
Title: Re: Questions and Answers 3D (read the first post before asking a question)
Post by: Luther Blissett on October 02, 2011, 05:25:59 pm
I think the "Panda X Exporter" was used, but I have no idea what the correct settings were. Karpov will know the answer to this.
Title: Re: Questions and Answers 3D (read the first post before asking a question)
Post by: Lizard on October 26, 2011, 04:59:26 pm
I see that Karpov made almost all human animations (for what he deserves a applause from the whole FOnline base), but
are there still slots to be filled/animations to be done? For example, the female ones and for different body types?
Title: Re: Questions and Answers 3D (read the first post before asking a question)
Post by: Jotisz on October 26, 2011, 06:15:52 pm
The body types have a similar build its possible to give them the same armature with some tweaking the ones that would need more adjustment are the midget, child, ghoul and mutant the later is still in work.
Title: Re: Questions and Answers 3D (read the first post before asking a question)
Post by: Karpov on October 26, 2011, 09:18:11 pm
From the source files I work with, the animations can be re-exported with a totally different skeleton without changing it's motion. Still, they would need to be tweaked manually for adjusting the ground position, and in the case of the female an extra work is needed because I need to blend the animation with the female pose, otherwise it would play the animation starting on a male pose.

What I hope for other bodytypes is that they can use the exact same skeleton, at least for strong, normal, and skinny type. That way it would use the same animation files without having to re-export them.

I have 3D model in  3D studio max how me it to convert in   .х without skeleton loss?

I use PandaExporter, it can export bones , and animations as well. But if you need it to be compatible with the animations that are already in the game you will have to use the same bone names. If you use your own animations then any bone name would do fine.
Title: Re: Questions and Answers 3D (read the first post before asking a question)
Post by: barter1113 on November 06, 2011, 10:03:20 am
How open base human in wings?

I got message when I try opening " Read failed: no such file or directory". I got Wings 1.4.1
Title: Re: Questions and Answers 3D (read the first post before asking a question)
Post by: Haraldx on November 06, 2011, 11:15:36 am
How open base human in wings?

I got message when I try opening " Read failed: no such file or directory". I got Wings 1.4.1
Open wings, under "file" there should be import, select the extension the model uses (usually .obj or .3ds), find the model where you saved it and it should pop up. Wings can't open .x files (but can export those though ;D ) since Wings doesn't support armature, animations and stuff.
Title: Re: Questions and Answers 3D (read the first post before asking a question)
Post by: barter1113 on November 06, 2011, 11:29:19 am
Not open again this same error.
Title: Re: Questions and Answers 3D (read the first post before asking a question)
Post by: Haraldx on November 06, 2011, 03:48:31 pm
Not open again this same error.
Check if the model is not corrupt or your Wings has installed fully (re-install may help).
Title: Re: Questions and Answers 3D (read the first post before asking a question)
Post by: barter1113 on November 12, 2011, 06:56:26 pm
Check if the model is not corrupt or your Wings has installed fully (re-install may help).

I uinstalled wings so which tools download for free? Blender or what? I am total uber newbie with 3D stuff but I want to learn something. What do you suggest?
Title: Re: Questions and Answers 3D (read the first post before asking a question)
Post by: Graf on November 12, 2011, 07:24:28 pm
I'd personally suggest you to join this community (http://www.facebook.com/Autodeskedcommunity), then get the legal free distributive of 3ds max 2010, 2011 or 2012 (I recommend 2010) from it, and then start learning by watching the tutorial videos on the youtube.
Title: Re: Questions and Answers 3D (read the first post before asking a question)
Post by: Jotisz on November 12, 2011, 08:28:07 pm
Well I have to say that if you can then try 3ds max its well used in game productions, however if you want a freeware software then choose Blender (side note if you on mac or linux blender may be the better choice).
Title: Re: Questions and Answers 3D (read the first post before asking a question)
Post by: Greencell on November 17, 2011, 09:12:34 pm
some question about equipment:
as far as i know there would be 2 armorslots for the future: Head and body.
How will wearing accesoires work? Will backpacks and sunglases get extra slots or can they be equiped from inventory?
Can that anybody explain, please?
Title: Re: Questions and Answers 3D (read the first post before asking a question)
Post by: Mike Crosser on June 17, 2012, 08:56:42 pm
Probably a dumb question but.How long,after all of the models have been uploaded,will it take to actually implement 3d into the game?
Title: Re: Questions and Answers 3D (read the first post before asking a question)
Post by: LagMaster on June 17, 2012, 10:27:52 pm
Probably a dumb question but.How long,after all of the models have been uploaded,will it take to actually implement 3d into the game?
O O, I know the answer!!!!
Title: Re: Questions and Answers 3D (read the first post before asking a question)
Post by: Haraldx on June 17, 2012, 11:00:18 pm
Probably a dumb question but.How long,after all of the models have been uploaded,will it take to actually implement 3d into the game?
Depends. If it is a piece of armor or anything else you can wear, then it requires rigging to the human model itself and you can pretty much kick it into the game. But if you mean when will all the scripts show up to allow us to get these things like clothes in the game without using admin commands and other nonesense of which I understand absolutely nothing, then nobody really knows.
O O, I know the answer!!!!
Please cut this bullshit... It's not even relevant to the question and blatantly bombarding every post with a question that includes "When" or "How long" with the answer SOON(tm) is old and by that I can easily tell you are very easily affected by crowd, therefore, you dream for an iPhone/iPad or any other Apple product (if you don't have one already) and you generally become extremely stereotypical which ofcourse then leads to you and other million people that are inhabitants of this planet (presuming you do live on Earth) are comparable to retards.
Title: Re: Questions and Answers 3D (read the first post before asking a question)
Post by: Mike Crosser on June 17, 2012, 11:12:23 pm
No I meant after all of the armors/guns/critters are complete how long will it take to actually implement them all into the game?
Title: Re: Questions and Answers 3D (read the first post before asking a question)
Post by: Horatio on June 17, 2012, 11:45:24 pm
No I meant after all of the armors/guns/critters are complete how long will it take to actually implement them all into the game?
They must be animated, the ingame render with effects should be done, they must be scripted so the correct model distribution will work... The most easy answer is "a while".
Title: Re: Questions and Answers 3D (read the first post before asking a question)
Post by: Luther Blissett on June 18, 2012, 01:26:49 am
To be honest, we could implement a very basic version quite quickly. For a small number of objects, we'd need :
1) Death animations for female
2) Some way of sorting out this animation timing problem (the enemy dies before you punch/shoot)
3) If I understand it correctly, death animations for armours would need "slicing up" in the same way
4) Tidying up the basic models / textures a bit
5) A couple of hair models
6) Linking existing armours and weapons to the 3d models
7) A few base textures / hairs / beards to choose from at game start
8) Tweaking the rigs on some models to remove clashes/glitches
9) Something else I've forgotten

If those were done, we'd be able to replicate what we already have in game, in 3D at a fairly crude level, i.e. basic male and female with existing sets of armour and weapons. The animation timing thing is a problem which we don't know how to solve yet, the death animations are in progress by Karpov now and the rest of the list is all stuff which is quite straightforward (and anyone could do with a little instruction), though in some cases time consuming.

For the more polished version, we'd need quite a while longer to get it to "look right" (adjust lighting, effects etc) and to rig and resize all additional content, make inventory/floor sprites and to implement the additional armours as things which have stats and appear in shops etc. There'd also need to be some in-game scripts written to change base clothing - i.e. a clothes shop similar to the existing barber shop.
Title: Re: Questions and Answers 3D (read the first post before asking a question)
Post by: Haraldx on June 18, 2012, 09:50:09 am
No I meant after all of the armors/guns/critters are complete how long will it take to actually implement them all into the game?
Which pretty much refers to -
If you mean when will all the scripts show up to allow us to get these things like clothes in the game without using admin commands and other nonesense of which I understand absolutely nothing, then nobody really knows.
And yet again concludes us to -
Nobody really knows.



The animation timing thing is a problem which we don't know how to solve yet.
But it has been like that since the start of FOnline...
Title: Re: Questions and Answers 3D (read the first post before asking a question)
Post by: Horatio on June 18, 2012, 12:05:13 pm
So why not implement the beta version of 3d era now, just with the basic male/female models and basic customisation interface in the start? At least some motivation for the community, because i think the 3d ATM doesn't get this much excitement like earlier.

And the rest like shops, critters, can be added later.
Title: Re: Questions and Answers 3D (read the first post before asking a question)
Post by: Luther Blissett on June 18, 2012, 04:03:42 pm
Well, the 3D stuff is separate from the actual 2238 dev stuff, so we don't have any control over what goes in game. However, I think once 1-9 off that list are done, we can at least set up a downloadable and finished test repo for people to look at (which would only be the base SDK TLA version, but in 3D). After that it's down to the 2238 dev team to work out if/when they can start implementing things.
Title: Re: Questions and Answers 3D (read the first post before asking a question)
Post by: Mike Crosser on June 18, 2012, 06:18:27 pm
Sooo, a week? A month?
Title: Re: Questions and Answers 3D (read the first post before asking a question)
Post by: Horatio on June 18, 2012, 07:17:35 pm
Sooo, a week? A month?

Why do you even ask?
Title: Re: Questions and Answers 3D (read the first post before asking a question)
Post by: Luther Blissett on June 18, 2012, 07:27:38 pm
It's hard to work out, because there's no way of telling how many volunteers would be working on it at any time, and how much free time they'll have. Potentially, there could be something crudely usable on a test server in a couple of months. Obviously, it can be made faster by more people helping.

It would be really helpful if someone could get the normal maps working in game. There's a lot of bits I could finish off if that was sorted.

Note that all devs and 3D devs are secretly professional international footballers, so Euro 2012 will probably delay things a little :P
Title: Re: Questions and Answers 3D (read the first post before asking a question)
Post by: Horatio on June 18, 2012, 07:36:18 pm
Is there other projects than 2238 that use 3d?
Title: Re: Questions and Answers 3D (read the first post before asking a question)
Post by: Graf on June 18, 2012, 07:49:30 pm
Is there other projects than 2238 that use 3d?

I'd answer to this.

Nope, there isn't any of them, that are "up and running", but there was at least 3 or 4 project representatives has been asking for permission to use the 2238 community works. To every single of them it's been said to get permission from participants of the 3D project (e.g. contributors), and I'm not sure how many of them has asked anyone other than me. My guess is that none of them did so. 
Title: Re: Questions and Answers 3D (read the first post before asking a question)
Post by: Luther Blissett on June 18, 2012, 08:30:41 pm
I'm also making a lot of stuff for Surf's What Remains (http://www.rpgcodex.net/forums/index.php?forums/what-remains.43/) mod, but in a sense it's all pretty interchangeable if the models are of any use for anything else.

[edit] To Graf, you could perhaps remind them to ask again. The main one is Karpov's permission, as it includes base models and all animations. It's fairly easy to build things on top of that framework. It would be a very good thing if a few more projects were using them, because sharing works both ways - they will discover or create new things that can be used here too.
Title: Re: Questions and Answers 3D (read the first post before asking a question)
Post by: Jotisz on June 19, 2012, 09:18:37 am
Is there other projects than 2238 that use 3d?

Although Olympus 2207 uses normal 2d frms and its not Fonline engine based, but they made those characters from high poly 3d models they animated. According to what I heard some of their models made it to some other Fonline games.
http://olympus2207.com/
here is a demo reel showing the deaths
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ecJ0PJ2395s
Title: Re: Questions and Answers 3D (read the first post before asking a question)
Post by: Horatio on June 19, 2012, 09:39:46 am
That looks pretty impressive, Jotisz. I suspect the guys made a extensive batch script to insert frames and offsets for rendered images, so... It would be interesting to recreate such technology.

Yet, that is a lot of frames.
Title: Re: Questions and Answers 3D (read the first post before asking a question)
Post by: Gob on November 03, 2012, 06:55:46 pm
Why do russians make such good games  ???
Title: Re: Questions and Answers 3D (read the first post before asking a question)
Post by: TerRex on November 08, 2012, 02:49:31 pm
What can be opened. X for edit?
Title: Re: Questions and Answers 3D (read the first post before asking a question)
Post by: Luther Blissett on November 09, 2012, 05:32:14 am
There are probably several programs which will do this, but I have been using Fragmotion (Website link (http://www.fragmosoft.com/downloads/)) to open the .X files. It should open any of the game's .x files (model or animation) directly.

There's a little bit of info on using it in the tutorial links here : 3D Tutorials and Links (http://fodev.net/forum/index.php/topic,18777.0.html).
Title: Re: Questions and Answers 3D (read the first post before asking a question)
Post by: Jotisz on November 10, 2012, 04:07:17 pm
I would suggest using Blender although by default x import and export isn't possible you have to turn it on in the addons section of user preferences. You can find download link for Blender here (http://www.blender.org/) Fragmotion is good choice too though if you wish to make some modification to existing models too I would suggest Blender you could try the trial version of 3d Studio Max too.
Title: Re: Questions and Answers 3D (read the first post before asking a question)
Post by: Horatio on November 21, 2012, 05:06:56 pm
Is anyone doing anything related to 3d atm?
Title: Re: Questions and Answers 3D (read the first post before asking a question)
Post by: Mike Crosser on November 21, 2012, 06:52:24 pm
Is anyone doing anything related to 3d atm?
I'd also like to get an answer for this question.
Title: Re: Questions and Answers 3D (read the first post before asking a question)
Post by: Luther Blissett on November 21, 2012, 07:40:20 pm
I'm slowly tinkering with things on and off, but nothing that'll really give "visual results" at the moment - it's mostly looking at the connections between scripts, objects and layers - basically same stuff as mentioned here (http://fodev.net/forum/index.php/topic,2407.msg218626.html#msg218626). In short summary, that's the "linking stuff" bit from the list below.

There's also quite a bit of missing knowledge in places, for example :
- Getting normal maps working.
- How the gory death animations would work with armour (I believe we may have to make a "broken up" version of every armour item, that separates in the same way as the "death body").
- Bit of confusion about the models not quite working in newer revisions of the SDK.
- Stuff to do with linking all the models up to actual in-game objects. (I'm sort of looking at this part at the moment)
- The problem with the "action" occurring at the start of the animation, so the enemy is shot before the gun is fully raised to fire.

In a sense, those are all things that we either need someone to look at, or a lot of people to help with. At the moment, they're beyond my abilities and beyond my available free time. It's not as much fun as designing and making models, but it's needed to make it all work.

To get anywhere further, the main bits are solving those few problems, and then general coordination. The normal maps and action/animation bits I personally have no idea how to deal with (or have tried and achieved nothing). I've got a vague idea of what needs looking at for the death animations with armour, but don't really understand it.

If anyone can volunteer to have a look at any of them, it would be a massive help, and would have a huge effect on being able to finish all this stuff off.
Title: Re: Questions and Answers 3D (read the first post before asking a question)
Post by: Lexx on February 03, 2013, 07:11:08 pm
The 3d model test we did today turned out to be pretty awesome. Tweaks and fixes are obviously still needed, but in total, the current progress is very good. Here are a few screenshots I took:

(http://i.imagebanana.com/img/ks0pdf5h/Bild1.png)

(http://i.imagebanana.com/img/36deooon/Bild2.png)

(http://i.imagebanana.com/img/ks4u7wyb/Bild4.png)

(http://i.imagebanana.com/img/9qo31hu2/Bild8.png)
Title: Re: Questions and Answers 3D (read the first post before asking a question)
Post by: Karpov on February 03, 2013, 09:30:56 pm
It was fun. I really liked how everyone looked different.
(http://imageshack.us/a/img801/756/screen03022013131905.jpg)(http://img35.imageshack.us/img35/1508/screen03022013125202.jpg)
(http://imageshack.us/a/img703/4640/screen03022013125856.jpg)(http://imageshack.us/a/img546/5843/screen03022013122140.jpg)
(http://imageshack.us/a/img202/8759/screen03022013134539.jpg)

The bad thing was some of the players experienced a FPS dropdown. I hope this gets better once I update to the new SDK.
Title: Re: Questions and Answers 3D (read the first post before asking a question)
Post by: Mike Crosser on February 03, 2013, 09:45:36 pm
Quite frankly i'm speechless.
I always worried that the 3d models would look "different" compared to scenery and that they wouldn't blend in.
But,well this looks quite good imho.
Title: Re: Questions and Answers 3D (read the first post before asking a question)
Post by: Alvarez on February 03, 2013, 10:59:07 pm
Will there be graphics stress tests as mass-PvP-events? Because it would be a good opportunity to gather feedback from many people using different hardware setups.
Title: Re: Questions and Answers 3D (read the first post before asking a question)
Post by: Mike Crosser on February 03, 2013, 11:16:35 pm
Will there be graphics stress tests as mass-PvP-events? Because it would be a good opportunity to gather feedback from many people using different hardware setups.
This must be done.Game lags a lot during pvp events (for me at least)with 3d it will probably be pretty bad.
Title: Re: Questions and Answers 3D (read the first post before asking a question)
Post by: Karpov on February 04, 2013, 04:23:35 am
I've been testing something this night. Spawned lots of 3d people. In both old and new versions of the SDK.

This one is the older version I use.  With 35 characters on scene.
(http://imageshack.us/a/img201/5677/screen04022013000333.jpg)

This is the new one. With 49 Van Buren characters (if I remember correctly they had a bit higher polygon count)

First is DirectX.
(http://imageshack.us/a/img189/4776/screen20130203235845.jpg)

OpenGL
(http://imageshack.us/a/img707/513/screen20130204000056.jpg)

Very positive results. I hope it gets even better when I import the new models.

PS: the shader in openGL seems to react better to light sources.
Title: Re: Questions and Answers 3D (read the first post before asking a question)
Post by: Alvarez on February 04, 2013, 04:52:52 am
This looks promising, Mr.Karpov, but you should also check the FPS with that crowd dancing or playing any other animation.
Title: Re: Questions and Answers 3D (read the first post before asking a question)
Post by: Haraldx on February 04, 2013, 12:51:17 pm
Well, for me it was an average of 35 frames per second the whole time with about 11 characters on the screen. True, my machine is old (not as slow as Luther's, but still slow).
Title: Re: Questions and Answers 3D (read the first post before asking a question)
Post by: Lexx on February 04, 2013, 04:52:17 pm
Got 90fps, pretty much all the time. :p
Title: Re: Questions and Answers 3D (read the first post before asking a question)
Post by: Jlekc on February 04, 2013, 05:04:23 pm
Looks like it went smooth for everyone. What are the chances for those 3d models to appear on current 2238 server?
Title: Re: Questions and Answers 3D (read the first post before asking a question)
Post by: Wipe on February 04, 2013, 05:39:00 pm
This looks promising, Mr.Karpov, but you should also check the FPS with that crowd dancing or playing any other animation.

What about attacking each other, we usually abuse something similiar during wipenight, on crowded maps (http://fonline2238.net/~wipe/pics/index.php?sfpg=MjIzOC9UZXN0cy8qc2NyZWVuXzI2LTA4LTIwMTBfMDQtMjYtMDUuanBnKjk0ZGM5YWM1MDYzODlhYTc2YTFmYjkzOTNjMTgwMGJl).
Title: Re: Questions and Answers 3D (read the first post before asking a question)
Post by: Alvarez on February 04, 2013, 06:00:40 pm
I have a little suggestion: the client should be able to disable temporarily the animations/switch to symbolic still frames when the FPS drops under certain level. This performance control will help prevent GPU lag.
Title: Re: Questions and Answers 3D (read the first post before asking a question)
Post by: fonliner on November 04, 2014, 08:29:25 pm
Is it dead or no?  :'(
Title: Re: Questions and Answers 3D (read the first post before asking a question)
Post by: Voiddweller on June 16, 2015, 11:27:01 pm
Is it dead or no?  :'(
What? The whole 3D project? No, not dead. As long as repository exist and being updated, it's alive and well.
Title: Re: Questions and Answers 3D (read the first post before asking a question)
Post by: fonliner on June 17, 2015, 12:35:05 pm
Yes 3d project, I don't see any updates or whatever else. Any shit, what about shaders, making models more falloutish look like?
Title: Re: Questions and Answers 3D (read the first post before asking a question)
Post by: Voiddweller on June 17, 2015, 05:48:01 pm
It's not shaders that makes 3d look falloutish, but animation sequences, models and texture detail. Just need a specular shader for shine
 (https://i.imgur.com/iqXvkSB.jpg) (https://i.imgur.com/v77fDii.jpg)
Title: Re: Questions and Answers 3D (read the first post before asking a question)
Post by: devis on June 17, 2015, 05:54:32 pm
Hey Void, come circle jerk on #fodev on forestnet irc, we can try to help you out better there.
Title: Re: Questions and Answers 3D (read the first post before asking a question)
Post by: Voiddweller on June 17, 2015, 05:59:08 pm
Thanks, i will