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[Nice_Boat]

I've admined a game server for about 2 years and am admininga  torrent server for over 5 years now.

Nice, it was just a StarCraft league in my case. I had three people checking my every punitive action and every player could file a complaint against my decision using an on-site form.

No way would anyone outside staff members ever have access to log files.
If you do that, you open your doors wide for cheaters and exploiters as you give them all the information needed on how to prevent detection.
All it will lead to is an endless stream of discussion about GM's and their action, wether right or wrong.
In my personal experience it's the cheaters and exploiters who are shouting the hardest about abuse.

No, why? Sensible censorship when it comes to information that could help cheating wouldn't be shunned upon. And it's not like we don't know shit about what GMs can and can't do. Actually, I could paste a list here and it would probably be pretty close to being complete. As I've said before, it's no CIA secret.

As for the comment someone made about dictatorship:
End your internet access subscription and crawl back under the rock you came underneath from.
Servers are maintained by people who set the rules for their guests. Whether it's a server hosting a game, a forum or whatever other kind of thing.
You may in some occassions have some saying in a few of the rules, at the end of the day you have no saying in most rules. Especially not in the important ones.
That's no different here.

Since you seem to be new to 2238, you probably missed the fact that GMs are not the owners of this server and this thread is endorsed by one of the "creators", whom I asked for permission before even mentioning this subject. Basically, the GMs are here to serve - both the Devs and us. Given the situation, I don't really feel like crawling under any rocks or ending my internet subscription, sorry.

I have no idea what's logged as far as GMs go and what's the underlying sytem, but I think an easy system could be implemented (depending on the database system that is):
Simply log all actions by GMs which cause changes to a player character. Thus leveling, adding items, killing them, etc.

We aren't asking for anything more. To be made public, that is.

Further more, I'm pretty sure that whoever of the devs is/are responsible for the GMs, check logfiles from time to time.
If they have no time to do so, or there's reason for it to be done more regularly, they should promote the most trusted/experienced/objective GM.
Yes, a GM, as that person knows things from a player's point of view and a GMs point of view.
Not to mention (s)he mostly likely knows the GM and can therefore better assess the situation.

The problem is GM activity is not top secret and as far as trusting GMs goes, please reffer to the origins of this thread (yes, entire national sub-board) and the arguments mentioned above.

Players should keep in mind that GMs probably have their own private forum(s) to discuss issues, actions taken, actions to be taken, etc.
Especially if it concerns something serious.

It's actually an IRC channel and I somehow doubt they're preparing a battleplan before GM x decides he's going to slap player y for 9999 AP for no real reason.

As for thieves, bombers, caravan traps, etc. the GMs not liking them simply have to learn to life with them like the rest of us.

And who's gonna check if they are? The Devs? Don't they have better things to do, like, you know, developing the game?

Sure you can automate part of the process, but the complaining, whining and discussing part is completely human and won't go away.

ctrl + v "You should contact XYZ if you have any complaints against GM activities" -> Junk is more efficient than <Pointless Discussion> -> Junk and far less disturbing than "I don't really care" -> Junk.

[Surf]

No, why? Sensible censorship when it comes to information that could help cheating wouldn't be shunned upon. And it's not like we don't know shit about what GMs can and can't do. Actually, I could paste a list here and it would probably be pretty close to being complete. As I've said before, it's no CIA secret.

If you would know this so good like you are saying, probably 80% of the "GM abuse" threads wouldn't be open in the first place. There is no reason some GM should copy/paste all the commands and stuff in here.

Basically, the GMs are here to serve - both the Devs and us. Given the situation, I don't really feel like crawling under any rocks or ending my internet subscription, sorry.

We are here to help, yep. But that doesn't mean that we are the little "everyones monkeys" for individuals who like to cause trouble over and over again, telling lies or false assumptions on the forum etc. And yes, this is a rule. You may ask the person you got permission opening this thread.

It's actually an IRC channel

Not entirely true.

And who's gonna check if they are? The Devs? Don't they have better things to do, like, you know, developing the game?

Don't you have something better to, like, betatesting the game?

[Nice_Boat]

If you would know this so good like you are saying, probably 80% of the "GM abuse" threads wouldn't be open in the first place. There is no reason some GM should copy/paste all the commands and stuff in here.

Replace the commands with descriptions than. And it's not like those commands are useful if you aren't logged in on GM account.

We are here to help, yep. But that doesn't mean that we are the little "everyones monkeys" for individuals who like to cause trouble over and over again, telling lies or false assumptions on the forum etc. And yes, this is a rule. You may ask the person you got permission opening this thread.

I'm not sure what you're saying, so please be more specific, especially if you're suggesting I'm a liar or I assume something falsely. Moreover, I don't understand what rule are you talking about, please elaborate.

Not entirely true.

Not entirely false either.

Don't you have something better to, like, betatesting the game?

I don't really want to betatest this game without being reasonably assured it's not rigged - and I'm not alone on this one.

Once again - what are you scared of? Revealing top secret GM commands to the public? They don't work on normal accounts. Revealing sensitive information using in game chat? Censor it. If you're so clean and just, why is there such a resistance to having someone outside of your clique watching you with reasonable effectiveness?

[Surf]

Replace the commands with descriptions than. And it's not like those commands are useful if you aren't logged in on GM account.

Don't have any problems with that. If one of the devs wants that, then for sure we/them are doing such a little "disclaimer". But - again - that is just my opinion. I already said that not everyone in the team shares the same opinion about stuff.
So you have to wait for one of the devs to post here.

I'm not sure what you're saying, so please be more specific, especially if you're suggesting I'm a liar or I assume something falsely. Moreover, I don't understand what rule are you talking about, please elaborate.

Do you see your particular name in that list? No. I was just generally speaking. And that rule is in of our internal rulesets, guidelines you might call it.

I don't really want to betatest this game without being reasonably assured it's not rigged - and I'm not alone on this one.

Rigged? As Jovanka already asked, what particular things happened to you so that you can say this game is rigged?
More then a few people are fully fine with the team members (and no, we don't give a away free stuff  ).
If one has positive feelings about something, (s)he doesn't write that much on the forum, but if one thinks he has been harassed by "GM abuse" which is in 90% of the cases just a mistake, (s)he writes that in the forum as negative feedback.
That's just human. Still don't see what is "rigged" here, you are making an elephant out of a mosquito.

Once again - what are you scared of? Revealing top secret GM commands to the public? They don't work on normal accounts. Revealing sensitive information using in game chat? Censor it. If you're so clean and just, why is there such a resistance to having someone outside of your clique watching you with reasonable effectiveness?

I am not scared of, I am just stating my opinion. In fact, I already wrote it several times that I wouldn't matter, I just think it isn't needed.

[Pozzo]

Just one thing :

No, threads like these are created because of the general annoyance.

Man, don't speak for everybody please.
I don't care about what GM do in their life or in the game.
If you feel paranoiac maybe you're not so innocent.

Edit : and I must add that we don't need a policy for GM. We play the game for fun, this is not a full-time job.

[HertogJan]

Nice, it was just a StarCraft league in my case. I had three people checking my every punitive action and every player could file a complaint against my decision using an on-site form.

In my case it was a Wolfenstein Enemy Territory server (actually several, all from our own clan) with a clan leader who has close ties to the punkbuster crew.
(not giving names here)
Over time we helped to find and acknowledge a few exploits and hacks.

No, why? Sensible censorship when it comes to information that could help cheating wouldn't be shunned upon. And it's not like we don't know shit about what GMs can and can't do. Actually, I could paste a list here and it would probably be pretty close to being complete. As I've said before, it's no CIA secret.

And how will you avoid such information that's good for cheaters from being released?
The only way possible is manual labor.
GMs have information available we don't have access to.
Part of that information will most likely be used to identify possible cheats.
It's not about what they can and can't do, it's about the methods they use to identify cheaters and people abusing exploits.

Since you seem to be new to 2238, you probably missed the fact that GMs are not the owners of this server and this thread is endorsed by one of the "creators", whom I asked for permission before even mentioning this subject. Basically, the GMs are here to serve - both the Devs and us. Given the situation, I don't really feel like crawling under any rocks or ending my internet subscription, sorry.

I indeed have no idea who's the owner, I assumed it was at least 1 or more of the devs.
I also assumed devs made the rules.
There's nothing in my post to suggest I thought GMs are making the rules.
It also doesn't change the fact that we, as players and therefore guests (and beta testers) have no saying about the rules either.
Even worse, we have to keep in mind we are playing on someone else's server and therefore should keep in mind we are guests and act accordingly.
GMs are representing the host and should be respectful to their guests.

We aren't asking for anything more. To be made public, that is.

Your posts gave me a different impression.

The problem is GM activity is not top secret and as far as trusting GMs goes, please reffer to the origins of this thread (yes, entire national sub-board) and the arguments mentioned above.

If it's not top secret it makes one wonder what good releasing logs will do.
I have no idea what you mean with your comment about the Polish national board on this forum, but if I have to keep that origine in mind, I will.
Polish players don't have a good reputation with many none Polish players on this forum, I'm 1 of them.
I have a lot of experience with Polish players on Wolfenstein Enemy Territory and that's not good either.
Over 90% of the Polish players on our servers were banned for cheating.
Combining that with the demand of opening up logs for players, the first think that popped up in my mind is cheaters and exploiters will be thrilled by this.

It's actually an IRC channel and I somehow doubt they're preparing a battleplan before GM x decides he's going to slap player y for 9999 AP for no real reason.

I'm pretty sure there's some form of communciation going on.
Be it on a forum, IRC, or by some kind of player tag.
If not, the entire system wouldn't function and devs would have taken some serious measures by now.

And who's gonna check if they are? The Devs? Don't they have better things to do, like, you know, developing the game?

Like I said earlier, there are ways to log such changes to a players character.

ctrl + v "You should contact XYZ if you have any complaints against GM activities" -> Junk is more efficient than <Pointless Discussion> -> Junk and far less disturbing than "I don't really care" -> Junk.

The whining, etc. stays, wether logs are open or not.
It's not going to change anything on that end.

[JustGreat]

With regards to posting logs:
- How does someone know the log isn't edited?
- Cross reference of logs by GMs would be a step up from the current system.
- At the same time however, logs can be circumvented by bad GM by using voice communication (if such GMs exist this is probably what they would do anyway since voice comm leaves no evidence).

For point 2, I don't think it will work because the screenshots are random, and what happens between one screenshot to the next is all speculation. I disagree with point 3 because it doesn't change anything (Solar Surf explained why in his previous post) and creates very demanding work for the liaison . I would add to 4, that it should also include rules for the GMs, so we know what they can and cannot do as well.

[Badger]

Awful lot of work for a disgruntled minority of players. Instead we'll get complaints of doctored logs.

[Nice_Boat]

Rigged? As Jovanka already asked, what particular things happened to you so that you can say this game is rigged?

Reconite happened. Caravan rapes happened. Other, strange things happened. Not enough? What more do you want if GMs themselves admitted they  can't be 100% sure one of their kind is not exploiting here?

More then a few people are fully fine with the team members (and no, we don't give a away free stuff   ).
If one has positive feelings about something, (s)he doesn't write that much on the forum, but if one thinks he has been harassed by "GM abuse" which is in 90% of the cases just a mistake, (s)he writes that in the forum as negative feedback.
That's just human. Still don't see what is "rigged" here, you are making an elephant out of a mosquito.

We both know that we can't really assess whether it's a mosquito or an elephant because it's pretty dark here, but one thing is obvious: the motherfucker bites. It's enough to seek a solution.

And how will you avoid such information that's good for cheaters from being released?
The only way possible is manual labor.
GMs have information available we don't have access to.
Part of that information will most likely be used to identify possible cheats.
It's not about what they can and can't do, it's about the methods they use to identify cheaters and people abusing exploits.
...
If it's not top secret it makes one wonder what good releasing logs will do.

The situation here is sort of fucked up. Basically, people here know what the GMs can and can't do, but they have no info on how they're using their powers. On most other game servers, people have plenty of feedback on how they're using their powers, but don't know jack shit about what's happening behind the scenes. The only thing I'm fighting for here is the ability to know three things whenever a GM interacts with a player: who, with whom, what did he do. I don't really care about "how", because I know more than I would care for.

I have no idea what you mean with your comment about the Polish national board on this forum, but if I have to keep that origine in mind, I will.
Polish players don't have a good reputation with many none Polish players on this forum, I'm 1 of them.
I have a lot of experience with Polish players on Wolfenstein Enemy Territory and that's not good either.
Over 90% of the Polish players on our servers were banned for cheating.
Combining that with the demand of opening up logs for players, the first think that popped up in my mind is cheaters and exploiters will be thrilled by this.

Well, if you want to be racist here please keep it to yourself. I don't really want to know about your prejudices. Just FYI, 2 of the GMs are Poles and there's a Pole in the Dev team.

- How does someone know the log isn't edited?

Because it'd be generated via a script and wouldn't allow any human interference aside from the Dev team.

Awful lot of work for a disgruntled minority of players. Instead we'll get complaints of doctored logs.

It's a single script, a new subforum and a new official. Oh, and quite a lot of players feeling it's necessary to implement something like that. And no, we wouldn't get complaints because *see above*.

[Floodnik]

Actually, 3 GMs and 2 Devs.

[Kilgore]

Part of that information will most likely be used to identify possible cheats.
It's not about what they can and can't do, it's about the methods they use to identify cheaters and people abusing exploits.

Methods used by GMs to detect cheaters and exploiters are well-known already.

I have no idea what you mean with your comment about the Polish national board on this forum, but if I have to keep that origine in mind, I will.
Polish players don't have a good reputation with many none Polish players on this forum, I'm 1 of them.
I have a lot of experience with Polish players on Wolfenstein Enemy Territory and that's not good either.
Over 90% of the Polish players on our servers were banned for cheating.

Yeah, and all people with account's name starting on H are known for spreading only bullshit here.
Seriously, you have just made my day. You forgot to mention that every Pole is a thief.

With regards to posting logs:
- How does someone know the log isn't edited?
- Cross reference of logs by GMs would be a step up from the current system.
- At the same time however, logs can be circumvented by bad GM by using voice communication (if such GMs exist this is probably what they would do anyway since voice comm leaves no evidence).

For point 2, I don't think it will work because the screenshots are random, and what happens between one screenshot to the next is all speculation.

Logs wouldn't be edited because they would be generated by an automated script. The only people that could change logs would be devs and I doubt anyone from devteam would do such a thing. It was said many times in this thread and every now and again another person comes up with "they will edit logs".

Yes, GMs can use voice communication. But it could be useful only for spying opposing PvP factions. Still, there are spies in every big alliance in the game, so in conjunction with appropriate screenshots and that automated log, it would be very easy to prove that a GM is spying for his favorite faction.

I agree that results of point 2 would be too random to be useful.

[Solar]

1&2 will never happen. People GM for nothing and its a really sucky job already, theres just no way they will be exposed to public judgement ... ever.

3 - If you agree on someone to fulfil the role then I don't see why not. They already have their actions logged and if something genuinely needs looking at it can be flagged up to us (we certainly don't have time to check every accusation, so someone would need to filter the crap out.)

4 - This should be made public somewhere I guess.

[jan0s1k]

And one suggestion when you won't show gm's logs just allow players to look on their own logs I thing in players logs you can see what gm do with you (example teleporting etc)

How about this?

[Nice_Boat]

1&2 will never happen. People GM for nothing and its a really sucky job already, theres just no way they will be exposed to public judgement ... ever.

3 - If you agree on someone to fulfil the role then I don't see why not. They already have their actions logged and if something genuinely needs looking at it can be flagged up to us (we certainly don't have time to check every accusation, so someone would need to filter the crap out.)

4 - This should be made public somewhere I guess.

How about implementing some feedback everytime a GM interacts with a player? I'm talking basic info, like "you've been done X by Y" etc?

As to #4 - I just hope it happens sometime soon, because the discrepancies are just too large at times and you don't really know what to expect at times.

[Surf]

How about implementing some feedback everytime a GM interacts with a player? I'm talking basic info, like "you've been done X by Y" etc?

Sounds good, much better and especially easier to do then 1) and 2).

As to #4 - I just hope it happens sometime soon, because the discrepancies are just too large at times and you don't really know what to expect at times.

I agree.