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[Gnoff]

I've got a couple of random ideas that could possibly balance the sneak skill.
 1. If you have a big gun in either hand you can not sneak, if you equ one while sneaking you unsneak.
 2. Players using rifle weapons take a small hit in their ability to sneak (plasma rifles and the like are huge), players using any pistol sized weapon would have no penalties.
 3. Armor would have an effect on your ability to sneak, players wearing armor such as leather/combat leather jackets would have no penalty where as someone wearing metal armor would have a huge penalty(its freaking metal, ever heard someone move in a suit of armor) basically the bulkier the armor the bigger the penalty to sneak.
 4. Silent weapons would not bring you out of sneak: rocks, throwing knives, spears(you get the idea) but not grenades as the explosion they make isn't silent.
Any who these are just a few suggestions that could possibly do something to balance sneak, feedback/discussion needed.

[Sius]

I will skip everything else and ask right away: "Why should knife be sneak friendly weapon while grenade not?"

I agree that we should be able to attack and sneak at the same time IF we use proper combat methods (unarmed/mele/throwing/SG with silencer...) but the thing I don't get is why grenades should not be on the list. When you compare knife, minigun and grenade then its obvious that minigun is heavy, loud and hard to operate gun that will definitely compromise your ability to attack and sneak at the same time. On the other hand knife is small, quick and silent weapon. But grenade is loud but the source of the noise don't come from the attacker (like when you are shooting with minigun) but it explodes under your targets feets. Sure its noisy and people gonna notice it but the fact something is exploding and you can see effects of explosions miles away is enough to know that attacker is in X hexes radius around the explosion. There is no need to uncover him from sneak for that.

[Drakonis]

I will skip everything else and ask right away: "Why should knife be sneak friendly weapon while grenade not?"

I agree that we should be able to attack and sneak at the same time IF we use proper combat methods (unarmed/mele/throwing/SG with silencer...) but the thing I don't get is why grenades should not be on the list. When you compare knife, minigun and grenade then its obvious that minigun is heavy, loud and hard to operate gun that will definitely compromise your ability to attack and sneak at the same time. On the other hand knife is small, quick and silent weapon. But grenade is loud but the source of the noise don't come from the attacker (like when you are shooting with minigun) but it explodes under your targets feets. Sure its noisy and people gonna notice it but the fact something is exploding and you can see effects of explosions miles away is enough to know that attacker is in X hexes radius around the explosion. There is no need to uncover him from sneak for that.

explosion increase awarness of people around. so it should be at least harder to sneak after explosion

[Sius]

explosion increase awarness of people around. so it should be at least harder to sneak after explosion

And now take it without "what happens in reality" stuff and tell me whenether are grenades so imbalanced that they should cancel your sneak. They are useless and remain sneaked while attacking with them could help them a bit.

[Drakonis]

And now take it without "what happens in reality" stuff and tell me whenether are grenades so imbalanced that they should cancel your sneak. They are useless and remain sneaked while attacking with them could help them a bit.

Dude, seriously- what about plasma granade bursts? Sneak granade bursters sounds to me like a "new way to go"  :/

[Sius]

Dude, seriously- what about plasma granade bursts? Sneak granade bursters sounds to me like a "new way to go"  :/

And isn't that the point? Make new ways how to play? How many grenadiers are there today? And even with this feature sneak is still only small difference in real fights since you have to get really close to your victim and in order to remain unnoticed you have to come from behind and that almost impossible in PvP. Only chance such "class" could have is to fight on tight places but only maps that can supply this are Reding and BH. Rest are more or less open spaced and snipe/bg paradise.

[FischiPiSti]

One big sticky per grand topics please, there are sneak threads allready.

No 1 and 2 has been talked about and should be done, but the .223 pistol is too powerfull to not have a sneak penalty on it
No 3 is allready implemented
No 4 is OP. If you receive a sneak penalty after each attack, then fine. But throwing 20 knifes, or 20 needler rounds without beeing seen? Exploit heaven.

What sneak REALLY needs imo is:
1 AC bonus when sneak is active. HtH evade does not work AT ALL, at least this would balance out that hole a bit. I can understand why the "end of turn ac bonus" isnt working, but i dont understand the problems behind the skill/12 ac bonus part :/
2 Sneak not breaking when you dodge. Seriously why does sneak break when the enemy targeting you has 1% hit chance, critically missing and weapon exploding in his hands. Sneak should only break if you are hit, or you attack.
3 Ability to re-sneak when out of combat even if seen. Example: You attack, sneak breaks. Cannot resneak because combat is open for 10 seconds.
3+1 Ability to resneak in TB, when you are not seen.

[Ombra]

Is it "grenadiers complaining day"?

I really don't understand wth you have to whine about.
I get killed by Plasma Grenadier even with 220 HP without single chance of reaction.

BRoF + Fast Shot + 2x Action Boy + 10 AGI = 6 Plasma grenade in 2 seconds, and goodbye cruel world.


I also have a suggestion, as stated in my usual HtH Topic:
- Sneak should be exclusive for HtH fighters.
 

[Gnoff]

No 1 and 2 has been talked about and should be done, but the .223 pistol is too powerfull to not have a sneak penalty on it
No 3 is allready implemented
No 4 is OP. If you receive a sneak penalty after each attack, then fine. But throwing 20 knifes, or 20 needler rounds without beeing seen? Exploit heaven.

What sneak REALLY needs imo is:
1 AC bonus when sneak is active. HtH evade does not work AT ALL, at least this would balance out that hole a bit. I can understand why the "end of turn ac bonus" isnt working, but i dont understand the problems behind the skill/12 ac bonus part :/
2 Sneak not breaking when you dodge. Seriously why does sneak break when the enemy targeting you has 1% hit chance, critically missing and weapon exploding in his hands. Sneak should only break if you are hit, or you attack.
3 Ability to re-sneak when out of combat even if seen. Example: You attack, sneak breaks. Cannot resneak because combat is open for 10 seconds.
3+1 Ability to resneak in TB, when you are not seen.

Ok what I said was silent weapons would not break sneak when used, I never said that you could use a pistol and have your sneak not break, just simply able to sneak with no penalty due to the weapons size, once you fire your gun sneak breaks cause ya know the loud bang would kind of give you away. As far as knives and other silent weapons not breaking sneak I see nothing wrong with that, if you're standing there and getting hit within 15 hexes(max range of knives) and not looking for the thrower then that would be your fault. It's not like knives do insane damage I wouldn't consider 6-16 dmg overpowered.
As far as armor having an effect on sneaking, are you sure? Because I've seen quite a few people appear out of nowhere wearing metal armor. Your suggestions about sneak also make sense and should be added though. Like the HTH evade could easily be made to where if you have nothing in your equ hand slot you get a bonus to AC all the time this would at least let some hth guys get into melee range before being shot to death.

[Gnoff]

I will skip everything else and ask right away: "Why should knife be sneak friendly weapon while grenade not?"

I agree that we should be able to attack and sneak at the same time IF we use proper combat methods (unarmed/mele/throwing/SG with silencer...) but the thing I don't get is why grenades should not be on the list. When you compare knife, minigun and grenade then its obvious that minigun is heavy, loud and hard to operate gun that will definitely compromise your ability to attack and sneak at the same time. On the other hand knife is small, quick and silent weapon. But grenade is loud but the source of the noise don't come from the attacker (like when you are shooting with minigun) but it explodes under your targets feets. Sure its noisy and people gonna notice it but the fact something is exploding and you can see effects of explosions miles away is enough to know that attacker is in X hexes radius around the explosion. There is no need to uncover him from sneak for that.

The reason why I stated that your sneak should break after throwing a grenade would be balance reasons. Being able to stay in sneak and keep throwing grenades would basically be no different than a guy sneaking up to you with a minigun and bursting you 2x. Plasma grenades for instance do 40-90 dmg per grenade, if you could stay in stealth the whole time you could pelt the unsuspecting guy numerous times without him being able to even run away. 

[FischiPiSti]

Im not sure, im not sure in anything currently because of whole lag disabling FoV thing XD
But according to wiki:
http://www.fo2238.fodev.net/wiki/Sneak
Every armor outside of leather/combat leather jacket has a severe penalty to sneak, just like you suggested.
So maybe armor penalty is still disabled? I dont know.

BTW dont let the FOV penalties fool you, beeing in front of the enemy only gives -90 skill, not a % value. They just forgot to update the wiki yet

[Gnoff]

Another thing about sneak that needs to be fixed is the ability to SNEAK WHILE IN COMBAT! It's impossible for a melee character to go head to head with any player with a gun when you're stuck in combat. You have no way to reach them before they fill you with holes. It's especially bad in TB combat because you can't get away and are stuck in combat usually far away from the guy shooting at you and you can do nothing.

[Frosti]

I also have a suggestion, as stated in my usual HtH Topic:
- Sneak should be exclusive for HtH fighters.

I dont think we should give HtH bluesuit trolls invisibility.

[RavenWolf]

sneak need some changes:

a) sneak should give some advantaje to HtH chars, and for trhowing:
when you made an atack sneaking with a HtH weapon (or unarmed), or when throwing a silent weapon (not grenede), you dont lose your sneak status but the skill is halved until the combat cooldown ends. (also this can be aplied to some other silent weapons like needler)
*in TB the skill will recover after 2 turns.

b) same effect when you are hit by other player, instead of losing your sneak status the skill will be halved.

c) stealth boy:
i think the stealth boy should be implemented. a restriction will be that you cannot use it with a two handed weapon and have to be in a hand slot to work.

[FischiPiSti]

I dont think we should give HtH bluesuit trolls invisibility.

News flash: Most of the sneakers are bluesuits, or leather jackets at most, and they arent trolls, they are there to kill you not to harass. Problem is, that they suck at it because of game design, and that you think your 150 SG skill is superior to 150 unarmed.

Raven check out the melee topic, we brought some of your suggestions up there, because most of us agree that sneak+unarmed is a good combo. It must have been the intention of the devs of the original fallouts too with perks like silent death