Other > Suggestions
PvP balancing, part 0., part 1., PvP Constitution
Lordus:
Introduction:
As a player with combat experiences from the beginning of the open beta, i think, that combat needs improvement in some ways. The main problem i see, is balance of current "fighter classes", respectively consequences of multiplayer unbalancing of naturaly singleplayer game. It leads to situation, where exist only 2 PvP usable figher classes and only minority of existing weapons are useful in PvP.
Many ideas were written, many responses too, but there was almost zero output. So i dont want to make only suggestion with another ideas, but whole process with many succesive stages. This will allow to involve many players, their own ideas, also response from community and i hope, from developers. Developers, can, naturaly, but i hope, that they will, watch this process, enter into discussion and at least, give us feedback of possibility of game implementation of our suggested changes.
The result of this process is not only one or two particular ideas, but whole view on the future PvP image and playstyle, with background of many supporting players across Fonline community. So the result of this process cant be basicly implemented in this era, aim is next era. But this should not be barrier for testing of our concrete ideas in Fonline engine this era.
P.S.:
1) I think that until devs and core players will make meeting in some pub in the middle of Europe, this forum and this process is most "democratic" way how to involve players and get response from them. This is beta. Beta means at least little responsibility. Nothing hard, only to tune this forum and read some text, maybe add their comment. If players will not be satisfied, but they will not read this official forum, it is their fault. They will have plenty time to react here. I am little disapointed that many players dont want to add their constructive ideas here. Maybe it is because this stage is very abstract, maybe because they dont care.. But if i compare it to other, very concrete threads, this thread looks abadoned :) But maybe it is better for "constructive ideas creators".
2) I know that there is no duty to realize the results of this process. This is project of devs. But they named it open beta test, so they want respons and new ideas. If they want to make entertaining game, they have no other choice.
3) I am little disapointed, that my old teamates but also old enemie does not care about this project. I heard them every day (on Mumble) complaining about some game mechanism, that is not perfect (not just because we lost in combat, we never lose :) ), and they have no time to put their ideas here.
Boys (girls), until you will fuck Cvet/Lexx/Ghosthack's and other devs sisters (brothers), this is the far best chance how to change something.
The process will have this major stages:
Stage 0) Ideas about process itself, not about the PvP
Stage 1) PvP Constitution - the major ideas, ideas standing over ideas, the basic principles. Supportive question is: "What kind of PvP in fonline we would like to have?"
Stage 2) Ideas concretization - the measures, concrete ideas, changes,.. Supportive question is: "How can we realize the PvP Constitution ideas?" Proposals at stage 2 must be compatible with PvP constitution ideas.
Stage 3) Integrated players idea lists - every player/developer involved into this process could post his own list of changes, compatible with result of stage 1 and stage 2
Stage 4) The winner player list minor changes
Stage 5) Result of process. PvP fonline community integrated ideas suggestion to our mighty, powerfull, almost with god's power disposing developers
Note 1.: After every stage, there should be a vote about stage content. Not every time obligatory (in early stages - democracy has own limits), but we will try to listen to the vote result.
Note 2.: If you dont want to be construtive, please, leave this topic or at least, dont spamm nonseses. You will still have possobility to vote after every stage. Thank you Vedaras :) (actualy, you are welcome).
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Stage 0) If you have any ideas about this process, put it in your post like i did right now
Stage 1) PvP balancing, part 1. PvP Constitution
We need basic principles, so write your ideas. If there is opposite idea to yours, now problem, put your too. After we will collect as many ideas as we can, we will, reduce them by eliminating similar ideas, more concrete ideas, ... and we will post the list of them. Then we can make vote. The idea should be abstract, have a form of question, or answer, we will transfor im to right form in right time (i.e.: i want longer fights, should fights be longer or quicker?, i dont want to die soon is = this is the same abstract idea, about duration of combat).
List of basic ideas:
* Should we create multiplayer PvP system or not?
* Should we balance the current system or desing new (balanced) one?
* Should fights be longer, or quicker?
* Should there exist balance over the weapons or some of them will be better with all (most) of their aspects than others?
* Should economy balance the weapons or not.
* Should there exist a at least 2 kinds of guns in every weapon skill usable in PvP or not?
* Should the future pvp be balanced for "everybody", not just pvp builds?
* Should the result of PvP combat depends on the player skill or avatar skill (stats)?
* Should there exist variety in combat or not?
* Should there exist at least little similarity between real world and game world? ***
* Should we design this system to realtime combat?
* Should there exist a turn based combat?
*** I.e.: if you have pistol, short barreled gun, you expect that the gun will not fire to longer distance than rifle, long barreled gun. Or at night, you perception will be reduced than in day time.
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PvP constitution:
1) Fonline should be a multiplayer game.
2) We should create new PvP system (but use current SPECIAL, guns 3D models, enviroment,...). Because we want to make system, that should not be hard to realize. Only few changes (trait, or some minor perk) should be allowed.
3) The fights should be longer than now. Not quicker but also not neverending story.
4) The combat should be more tactical.
5) There should exist various combat. This will allow to create combat more tactical.
6) There should exist balance. Now, we have various combat classes, weapons.. but without balance, combat is not as much tactical, as it can be.
Requirements of tactical combats, various combat and balance results into this:
a) characters - There should not exist universal soldier class at one side (one char can use sniper riffles and minigun too), and also, there should not exist reduction like this one char = only one weapon = only one fight style. I know that you cant change your char stat and "purpose" (big gun, sg, ew) of your char if you reach level 21, but you can use various weapons
b) weapons - almost every combat char (at level 21), should be able to use more than one weapon with very different kind of effect, that will allow you to choose your fight style. Also most of weapons should have ability to choose at least 2 kinds of their fire ability (single shot, burst,..)
c) fight style - the result of combat should not depend on your character stats, but it should depend on your fight style. Even if enemy has bigger firepower, you should be able to defeat him, if you use your merits and enemy disadvatages
7) The economy. Time the player spend in game.
a) Economy benefits. Benefits from player ingame wealth, plurality of resources, should mean that player has bigger variety of choices, not that he has possibility to get more powerfull gun (in all or major attributes).
b) Economy (the weapons, ammo price, avaiability (of professions/weapons/classes) should be balanced at the end of balance process.
8 ) Everybody, not only power builds, should be able to join PvP combat.
a) Everybody is wide term, in my point of view, it is somebody who has enough hit points, chars skill to use weapon's best effect and brain to use player fight style and maximalize the effect of this gun. Everybody is not nolifers only.
b) This has also economy effect. Not only the expensives weapons and armors should be the neccesary items to join PvP and win. (point 8a)
9) There should exist at least little similarity between game world and real world.
I.e.: if you have pistol, short barreled gun, you expect that the gun will not fire to longer distance than rifle, long barreled gun. Or at night, you perception will be reduced than in day time.
10) We should balance 3 firearms classes and melee and unarmed class together, or at least, we should find the role for melee and unarmed.
11) We should focus on realtime combat, not turn based.
Turnbased is part of the game, we would not disable it, but it is not priority for us. So we will focus our attention to realtime only, if there will be any negative side effect in turnbased PvP, we dont care, but we dont want to intentionaly destroy the TB. Turnbased is good mostly for PvE. We are unable to fix turnbased too.
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Link for voting: http://fodev.net/forum/index.php?topic=4257.0
avv:
Let's keep this polite and uh... profesional. Also remain in topic.
Nothing to disasgree with the process itself. Only sidenote is that voting will probably be problematic, not to mention getting enough people involved and stay on subject.
--- Quote from: Lordus on April 29, 2010, 06:13:28 pm ---Should we balance the current system or desing new one?
--- End quote ---
We're talking long term here. So why not design a new one. The current is pretty broken and lacks enough variables, tools and toys to play with.
--- Quote from: Lordus on April 29, 2010, 06:13:28 pm ---* Should fights be longer, or quicker?
--- End quote ---
Longer but not in the way that 2 people spend 2 minutes standing next to each other shooting 2 damage shots.
--- Quote from: Lordus on April 29, 2010, 06:13:28 pm ---* Should there exist balance over the weapons or some of them will be better with all (most) of their aspects than others?
--- End quote ---
Right now there is a certain balance: bigger damage equals bigger price. But guns have to have roles, otherwise we don't have enough tactical possibilities.
--- Quote from: Lordus on April 29, 2010, 06:13:28 pm ---* Should economy balance the weapons or not.
--- End quote ---
Not only economy, because it could mean that richer player is always more powerful than skilled player. Players who play 24/7 are naturally more richer ingame than players who play 2h/d. Skill should be the ultimate judge when it comes to pvp.-
--- Quote from: Lordus on April 29, 2010, 06:13:28 pm ---* Should there exist a at least 2 kinds of guns in every weapon skill usable in PvP or not?
--- End quote ---
I'd go for reducing the weapon skills themselves. For example energy weapons and big guns have much less variety than small guns. If we want to reach the same level of variety, it requires many new guns in EW and BG categories.
I've got something to point out too: the future pvp should be balanced for everybody, not just pvp builds. Every build should be allowed to be able to grab a gun and head to the front without sucking completely because. One important factor should be that skills, perks and stats only determine what you can do, not how effectively you can do. So strong man prefers big guns because he can use them, but it doesn't mean that he always has 95% accuracy with them in every situation.
Otherwise we just continue the era of alts and powerbuilds and that's no way to a good and respected mmo. I wish this could be pretty obvious to everybody or we're going to have to discuss the alt/powerbuild issue again.
geraioptuaer:
I'm afraid you are wrong avv, a game that makes use of stats that can be chosen by the player will always lead to powerbuilds, even if you put caps then you have to take into account perks and that there are so many perks that are just not good for pvp.
avv:
--- Quote from: geraioptuaer on April 29, 2010, 07:43:19 pm ---I'm afraid you are wrong avv, a game that makes use of stats that can be chosen by the player will always lead to powerbuilds, even if you put caps then you have to take into account perks and that there are so many perks that are just not good for pvp.
--- End quote ---
What I'm talking about is to reduce the effects of passive features like character build on player's success and move more potential to player's skill to use differend game mechanics. Powebuilds will always exists, but they don't have to be omnipotent at what they are doing just because somebody made so good char.
Right now the game lacks tools and strategic components to be used for player's advantage. Too much is reliant on player's character. Your chance to hit depends on you weapon skill. Your damage depends on your weapon and perks. Your resistance depends on your armor, perks and stats. Your ability to dodge depends on your ac, but that's basically non existing. Only thing remaining how you can get the best of your enemy is movement and positioning. Your character does everything else for you. Because character build decides so many factors, a better char wins very likely when encountering a weaker char, even if the weaker char happens to have better positioning. When two equally skilled players meet, the one with better char automatically wins. Passive features being dominant is bad game design, kills creativity and strategy and encourages grind.
To change this, chars must have less hitpoints, damage output, accuracy and resistances but receive bonuses to all of them when player uses various features for his advantage. For this we need more active factors. For example enviroment, movement and fields of view are good sources to create active factors from. You can increase your ac by standing behind a window or barrel or by running. You can increase your accuracy by spending action points to aim an enemy, or deploy an overwach field in front of you. You can increase your damage by choosing the right weapon and ammo for right situation. Quick weapon switching might be necessary when situations change.
Surf:
Good idea lordus, and also avv.
To all others - make yourself an example of those both and try to argue without any flames and use valid criticsm.
This thread could be really good, so I don't want to see any spam in here.
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