Other > General Game Discussion
Future pvp theme
Nice_Boat:
What's with this "made for a singleplayer game" bullshit one keeps hearing every now and then? SPECIAL is based on GURPS almost to a degree it could be called a blatant ripoff. Actually, GURPS would be used if not for all the gore in the game. Oh, and the system worked in Tactics with very little modification. It's not a singleplayer thingie, it's just a set of rules made with an rpg game in mind. Obviously, you could use the dice and this particular set of rules to settle things both in NPC-PC and PC-PC relations. Besides, most people complain about the system being too lethal - hey, is that really a trait of a singleplayer game?
Oh, and "impossible to defend" and "PvP being all luck/too easy"? That's quite funny since PvP's been dominated by exactly SAME FRIGGIN' PEOPLE since early 2009 and somehow I didn't see avv or Izual among them ::) It's nothing personal, it's just mind boggling when people who lack the credentials say stuff like that. Actually PvP is not about luck in the slightest degree - it's about teamwork and positioning. So yeah, you can both defend and assault and there's a world of difference between the two. Anyway, there are a few things one has to remember while discussing FOnline combat mechanics.
First of all, combat in 2238 is very fast when it comes to movement. Maps are relatively small, it takes a few seconds to leave or drastically change positions. This requires very high lethality when it comes to sorting out the effects of the attacks to hope for decisive fights - if you can't kill (or knockdown, the practical implications are more or less the same) the target in a single, full AP barrage, he's going to run away. It's just that simple. Now, you could increase survivability while decreasing mobility, for example disabling the ability to run while in combat... and what do we get that way? Yes, ladies and gentlemen, we get TLA. And I'm more than sure most people agree that combat in 2238 is far more tactical than out there. In TLA your tactical skills, coordination etc. could totally suck, but quite often you could still win because of your build, level difference etc. On 2238 everyone more or less has a chance and smart play/player skill are rewarded to a much greater extent - and I really hope it stays that way.
Another thing is defence vs assault. Right now there's little to no reason to defend - you have less situational awareness then the attacker, it's harder to coordinate and pulling off a successful ambush has more to do with counterattacking at the right moment than actually catching your enemy in the crossfire. There's no need to use any sort of fixed positions, because they can be easily bypassed and you get quickly filled full of led if you don't keep moving... so I'm all for introducing some sort of AC bonus (could be pretty friggin' high, honestly) when standing inside a building next to a window or something like that. It just shouldn't be overdone or end up being the decisive factor, or else we'd be stuck with something in line with Close Combat games, but without suppression and morale (which were the things that made it work).
Attero:
its strange to call it tactics when you control only one character - it needs to be extanded to group fight. And most players rly look at PvP in 1v1 situations or some encounters with no osbtacles...
I agree on the fact that game is unfriendly for defending - part points Boat mentioned there is fact that power chars are bade around drug using . On offensie you just take drugs and attack. When defending you dont rly know when to take them , if you take them in combat you vritaully waste waste time on eatign al lthe shit you need ... if you take it too early then you will have to fight with penalties making you almost useless
As for saying devs & GMs opinion dotn count coz they dont do PvP , mind me but they can watch other fights and you dont know about it. Also what was said ealier "PvP" is more about power builds and non everyone have time and will to build one and bunch of chars to support it
Surf:
--- Quote ---As for saying devs & GMs opinion dotn count coz they dont do PvP , mind me but they can watch other fights and you dont know about it. Also what was said ealier "PvP" is more about power builds and non everyone have time and will to build one and bunch of chars to support it
--- End quote ---
"They" do alot of testing combat chars and abilities. ;)
Just because you don't see them doing so it doesn't mean they don't do it. :)
avv:
--- Quote from: Nice_Boat on April 18, 2010, 12:55:05 PM ---What's with this "made for a singleplayer game" bullshit one keeps hearing every now and then? SPECIAL is based on GURPS almost to a degree it could be called a blatant ripoff. Actually, GURPS would be used if not for all the gore in the game. Oh, and the system worked in Tactics with very little modification. It's not a singleplayer thingie, it's just a set of rules made with an rpg game in mind.
--- End quote ---
Fallouts and fonline have differend goals. In fallouts the ultimate goal was to finish the game, you could do it as a char who coulnd't fight at all and that was cool. But in fonline there's no goal, or at least the goal can't be to play as loser who dies when he meets hostilities. A speech powerbuild cannot persuade another char to kill himself or lay down his weapons. Fallout tactics had good combat system, but there was nothing else to do than fight so everyone was combat "powerbuild".
--- Quote from: Nice_Boat on April 18, 2010, 12:55:05 PM ---Oh, and "impossible to defend" and "PvP being all luck/too easy"? That's quite funny since PvP's been dominated by exactly SAME FRIGGIN' PEOPLE since early 2009 and somehow I didn't see avv or Izual among them ::) It's nothing personal, it's just mind boggling when people who lack the credentials say stuff like that.
--- End quote ---
Yeh no offense taken, I've been waiting for real pvp players to participate in this discussion anyway.
--- Quote from: Nice_Boat on April 18, 2010, 12:55:05 PM ---In TLA your tactical skills, coordination etc. could totally suck, but quite often you could still win because of your build, level difference etc. On 2238 everyone more or less has a chance and smart play/player skill are rewarded to a much greater extent - and I really hope it stays that way.
--- End quote ---
Everyone with powerbuild that is.
--- Quote from: Nice_Boat on April 18, 2010, 12:55:05 PM ---Another thing is defence vs assault. Right now there's little to no reason to defend - you have less situational awareness then the attacker, it's harder to coordinate and pulling off a successful ambush has more to do with counterattacking at the right moment than actually catching your enemy in the crossfire. There's no need to use any sort of fixed positions, because they can be easily bypassed and you get quickly filled full of led if you don't keep moving... so I'm all for introducing some sort of AC bonus (could be pretty friggin' high, honestly) when standing inside a building next to a window or something like that. It just shouldn't be overdone or end up being the decisive factor, or else we'd be stuck with something in line with Close Combat games, but without suppression and morale (which were the things that made it work).
--- End quote ---
Doesn't sound all that bad. Counter to high ac cover positions could be forced fire with explosives, rockets and flamer, you could smoke enemies out of their bunkers.
In addition it would provide tactical possibilites if you had full sprint, gun ready walk and overwatch position. Full sprint means that you can run fast but it takes longer to deploy your gun and shoot. Walking with gun ready means that you can shoot faster when encountering an enemy but you're slower. Overwatch means that you shoot almost instantly when meeting an enemy, but you got tunnel vision, you're stationary and cannot see your flank or rear. Then guns could have differend features depending on how fast they shot and what kind of fields of view they provided. For example scoped rifle is accurate, but you get narrowed field of view when in overwatch position. Shotgun is very fast to shoot when you encounter an enemy. Support guns are slow to deploy but you can shoot very long and hold positions.
This was something that fallout tactics lacked. It had various guns and stances, but all guns shot immediately and dealt huge instant damage and every char had 360 field of view in overwatch mode.
Nice_Boat:
--- Quote from: avv on April 18, 2010, 01:25:39 PM ---
Everyone with powerbuild that is.
--- End quote ---
Well, I don't know. You could always go with 6LK more crit, better crit and you're pretty effective with a small gun. In my opinion it's not as bad as people make it sound. Maybe it's something about PvP players being pack animals and crafters usually fighting when they're alone? With the buffed crits I wouldn't say killing someone takes that much of effort character-wise, so if you manage to surprise your opponent (flank him, pull the gun on him first etc.) you should be pretty well off. I've had a funny screwup when I ambushed a miner with plasma grenades and didn't get him on the first two due to lag - he just ran a bit ahead out of my range and instakilled me. I bet there are tons of stories like that floating around. That's why I like instakills and high lethality in general - it keeps everyone dangerous. With combat relying on stats too much crafter builds are simply inferior to powerbuilds and there's no ammount of skill that could even things out.
--- Quote from: avv on April 18, 2010, 01:25:39 PM ---
Doesn't sound all that bad. Counter to high ac cover positions could be forced fire with explosives, rockets and flamer, you could smoke enemies out of their bunkers.
In addition it would provide tactical possibilites if you had full sprint, gun ready walk and overwatch position. Full sprint means that you can run fast but it takes longer to deploy your gun and shoot. Walking with gun ready means that you can shoot faster when encountering an enemy but you're slower. Overwatch means that you shoot almost instantly when meeting an enemy, but you got tunnel vision, you're stationary and cannot see your flank or rear. Then guns could have differend features depending on how fast they shot and what kind of fields of view they provided. For example scoped rifle is accurate, but you get narrowed field of view when in overwatch position. Shotgun is very fast to shoot when you encounter an enemy. Support guns are slow to deploy but you can shoot very long and hold positions.
This was something that fallout tactics lacked. It had various guns and stances, but all guns shot immediately and dealt huge instant damage and every char had 360 field of view in overwatch mode.
--- End quote ---
With a proper interface it could work pretty well. Shift + click - full sprint, normal click - gun ready, stationary for 2-3 seconds - overwatch. Tunnel vision would require really precise and fluid turning mechanics (if you press a your character's vision ALWAYS follows the attack cursor). But then again this'd require suppression mechanics and forced fire. I'm not sure if that wouldn't be taking it a bit too far. I mean, firefights would be more realistic, yeah, but you'd end up with shooting TONS of ammunition to fix the enemy and advance, so crafting would have to be totally rebalanced. That's why I said it would be problematic if cover mechanics were to be made the defining factor in battle.
Besides remember that those mechanics would promote squad tactics far more than the current ones do. You'd need someone to lay down base of fire, you'd need completely different weapons/skills to maneuver and deliver a kill etc. There's already enough whine associated with combat being too heavy on teamwork, and I guess that being a BG character that's useless aside from providing covering fire and can't do much lone-wolf style would piss even the most hardcore military buffs out there off.
I think we should just start small and introduce something more in line with what we have right now. Something like crouched and prone stances that influence your movement speed and give you AC bonus and receiving AC bonus from using cover (windows, wells, etc.). Throw forced fire for area weapons into the mix (grenade room clearing techniques, hell yeah) and we've got ourselves combat that's tied to the terrain a bit more without turning everything concerning fighting upside down. After it's implemented we could think about more fancy stuff - and ask ourselves whether we want it or not at that point.
Navigation
[0] Message Index
[#] Next page
[*] Previous page
Go to full version