Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[Surf]

Will this madness never end? why don't you just try another weapon if it's simply "impossible" for you crafting those damn rockets? You devs are really patient I have to admit.

[blahblah]

Hope that you finally understand that this issue wasn't about price in shops but about gathering.

Price in shops = gathering time.
Every item gathered has a base price reflecting how many of them you can get in a set amount of time.

The price of a rocket is based on how long it takes to make one. So if you increase the price to 300 caps then it's obvious that the gathering time will also increase.

Please understand what Solar said a million times. Rockets are supposed to be expensive to make. And expensive means "takes a lot of time."

[RavenousRat]

Yep, EP's aint any problem as you can get tons of them: Go V15, get 14 EP's from gathering them yourself and twice as more from killing other gatherers. Problem are thoes metal parts, altough its unlogical if a rocket wouldnt need them.

Vault 15? I've never been there. But I got around 47-50 El. Parts at 2nd playing day after wipe. I wanted to sell 25 caps each, but everyone can get it themself easy and fast, so I just droped it all at NCR. Also... I being there even now (but not for el.parts, sometimes for meeting, if have no radio or something), and I've NEVER saw there ANY players. So you have 0% to be killed and get your 8365863 el. parts.

First gather all of resources for 1-2 hours then make 10 rockets and then we talk.

Anyway - does some of you know sth about it?

Yes, we(or I) know. Don't gather all types of resources at the same time.
I once got like ~200 junk at my tent... so I don't need to gather it anymore for very very very very very long time. But now... it's almost ended... anyway soon I'll get other 100-200.
Then I started to dig minerals and make like <insert here big number> gunpowder.
And then ~50 wood.
Now I simply need to get metal parts and I can craft whatever I want for SG prof that doesn't require HQ materials.

If I wanted to craft alot rockets, I did the same, but also get around 100 el. parts.

No, don't just focus on "gather el. parts... gather el. parts, ahh he have el. parts! kill him! el. parts... el. partsssss...", don't go so fanatic, gather el. parts on 21 min, CD, then go exploit something for caps... errr... I mean, do something, like killing brahmins or geckos or just XPing. Then in 20 min return and get another tone of el. parts. 1 day = <insert another big number> el. parts. and you don't need to get them anymore for very very very very very long time.

All you need is just dig some iron ore->metal parts, then get enough powder, el. parts and junk from your tent and craft your rockets.

[Solar]

Each recipe is worth $X. Rocket's recipe is worth $300.

Now each material is also worth a base price of $Y. This is then multiplied up by a factor, which as its never been explained before has no name, thus I shall dub it the "worked bonus". For normal materials this bonus is 2 and it functions to make something that has been used in a recipe worth more than just selling that base material at a trader.

This means that a material that has been used in a recipe contributes $2Y.

If something were only made from one material then X = N*2Y, where N is the number of items. So if a 10mm pistol was worth $100 and junk's base price was $25, then you would need 2 junk. (100 = 2*2*25)

Obviously we generally don't have just one raw material per recipe in general, so the total of N*2Y + M*2Z+L*2A+...for all the different materials equals X

For our case we have changed both the "worked bonus" (used to be 4) and the base price (I can't remember what it was since my computer just had to be wiped along with all my spreadsheets) but lets pretend it remained unchanged.

Now lets also presume X had remained unchanged, we would not have the same N, as 2Y does not equal 4Y, so the recipe would contain N/2, to be X = (N/2)*4Y in the old one, to match X=N*2Y in the new . So twice the number of junk would be required simply to MAINTAIN a price.

now we have 1.5X (50% increase). Let N equal the old number of junk in a recipe and still presume base price is unchanged (which I have no idea if it is).

X = N*4Y in the old recipe, 1.5X = 2*1.5N*2Y or 3N*2Y. A 3 fold increase in the number of junk for a 50% increase.

Now factor in the base price change and we the real change to N that you need to produce a 50% increase in the base price - its not simply a matter of 1.5N equalling a 50% price increase.


And yes, before its asked, you gather according to the base price too, so that is a constant.


Now, there is really nothing else I can add.

[Attero]

i think you realy lost him there - its simple item worth = material price * complication bonus (is it constant among tiers? i think it shouldnt ...)

as for the subject - i think that when you play one man army you should expect that you need an army to support you ...

if you will look at everything in matter how long time it takes me to collect it sure you will come to scary conclusions. You need to notice that rockets use the "noob" materials - no HQ stuff - look every noob geather those and at top of that slaves can geather them (the MP /gunpowder). Junk - junk i think will start coming from dissassembling (unless it was rly nerfed) and that will also reduce it market worth . probably only EP will have to be manuanly geathered - but the cd is low so you can get them easily yourself .... like always - brains > muscules

(another thing to notice : comparing RL to higher tier big guns - well basicly higher tier means better damage to ammo price ratio)

[Neuromancer]

Thank you for explaining how things working now, wish you had done this earlier, not anwsering in style "don't like it - don't use it" , were getting civilized now - that's good.

Conclusions:
1) Formula is great ( actually similar to this one i've sent to you ) but it doesn't work for ammo ( or ammo prices should be drastically changed ).
Right now is applied only to rockets.
    Look what happens if it would be implemented into small guns ( According to wiki which has yet old prices of rockets but AFAIK you didn't changed any other prices )

100 x 10mm JHP = 1000 caps
I don't know exact materials price but I guess if it would be much more than 1 metal parts and 6 gunpowders ( keep in mind that rocket materials are worth 300 caps so make it now 3 times more and you'll find out what was I fighting for and why I was so eager to check it )

2) Unfortunately rocket isn't as that good as you think it is. Compared to 223. ammo shot from sniper rifle.

1 223.ammo = ~20 caps
1 rocket =~300 caps

That is about 15 times more. And what makes it so worthy? You can get similar or more damage with sniper rifles (with chance on insta kill and greater distance). All you're getting is knockdown which simply isn't that good. And yet rocket launcher has big drawback which is reloading after each shot.

3) What cause so drastic changes wasn't new 'bonus worked' formula ( from x4 to x2 ), just aplying it for rockets only and not for all guns which would be nightmare for all.



 

[Solar]

Thank you for explaining how things working now, wish you had done this earlier, not anwsering in style "don't like it - don't use it"

I did explain it several times, but at least it has now become clear.


There are / were (depending on which version we have re-updated to) bugs with the low level ammo. They should all be coming in 50s, but some were left as 100s in error.

This is the reason you see some gangs using 9mm as currency, but it will be fixed as soon as we update to the latest version.

2) Unfortunately rocket isn't as that good as you think it is. Compared to 223. ammo shot from sniper rifle.

1 223.ammo = ~20 caps
1 rocket =~300 caps

Better to compare it to other big guns. You pay a premium for being able to deal very good DPS with little skill/SPECIAL requirements. There is a post of mine in one of these threads showing the relative cost of BGs. Rockets are in the same ballpark as minis, LSW and M60s are cheaper for other reasons that aren't quite apparent as yet. But they will be incentives to play in a certain way when things work themselves out.


Bonus went from 4 to 2 (3 for high materials to answer the earlier question) to allow new folks to sell the raw materials more easily as a revenue stream.

[Neuromancer]

So make it that way:

Explosive rockets [ tier2 ] - resurces: high quality gunpowder and metal parts ( ammount similar to metal armor )
AP rockets [ tier3 ] - resources: high quality gunpowder and high quality metal parts ( ammount little greater than above )

And make it back in 10x batches so overall cost of 10 rockets would be 3000 ( whereas metal is 5000 and needs only 4 high quality metal parts )

Anyway I'm still convinced about that your formula doesn't apply for small gun ammo.
Even if 10mm was in 50 batch it would be 500 caps  and that is almost 2times what rocket is worth, and needs 2 times less resources.

[Solar]

10mm jhp - 6 Gunpowder, 1 Metal Part. 6*30*2 + 1*2*30*2 = 360 + 120 = $480
10mm ap is just +2 Gunpowder, so thats +2*30*2 = $120 => $600 for 50.

Both are fine.


A Rocket is 1 Metal Part, 1 Gunpowder, 1 Junk and 1 Electonic Part. Base price of $310
1*2*30*2+1*30*2+1*25*2+1*40*2 = 120+60+50+80 = $310

Also fine.


Crafting in batches of 10 would work exactly the same as crafting 10 singles using your cumulative timeout. Crafting 10 items isn't that taxing a job. It would, on the other hand, lock you into only being able to craft 10 at a time.

No reason for any change

[Attero]

10mm jhp - 6 Gunpowder, 1 Metal Part. 6*30*2 + 1*2*30*2 = 360 + 120 = $480
10mm ap is just +2 Gunpowder, so thats +2*30*2 = $120 => $600 for 50.

Both are fine.


A Rocket is 1 Metal Part, 1 Gunpowder, 1 Junk and 1 Electonic Part. Base price of $310
1*2*30*2+1*30*2+1*25*2+1*40*2 = 120+60+50+80 = $310

Also fine.


Crafting in batches of 10 would work exactly the same as crafting 10 singles using your cumulative timeout. Crafting 10 items isn't that taxing a job. It would, on the other hand, lock you into only being able to craft 10 at a time.

No reason for any change

Many are gonna hate me for this but i dont like inconsistences...
10mm AP is in 100 batch so its atm cheaper to craft then JHP (for those that wants to whine its a bug , alot of ammo was bugged this way i think this one is last)
happy nerfing uhmm... i mean fixing ^_^

[blahblah]

10mm jhp - 6 Gunpowder, 1 Metal Part. 6*30*2 + 1*2*30*2 = 360 + 120 = $480

You said any base material after being crafted is multiplied by 2, right?
So 1 metal part = 2 ore, both of which have a base price of 30? (2*30) And then that is multiplied by 2 because you again crafted something using them? (2*30*2)?
If so, then shouldn't 6 gunpowder there be base price of minerals (30?) times 2 for crafting, and times 2 for crafting? 6*30*2*2 which equals 720
Or is iron ore worth 30 and minerals only 15?

[Tyler]

Why change all ammo quantities to 50's?It slows down the game which has already been slowed alot by dropping xp from critters and less xp from crafting.You made crafting easier in some ways and more tedious in others.Im not whining,I absolutely love the new scavenging feature and the risky runs to bh for better materials but once its all done i dont have much to show for it and I still have to go and get ammo.I do already use the traders whenever I can but they are plauged with the same issues they always encounter after a few days of playing which means that for the most part they are full of useless shit.An increase of ammo crafted at once with the same xp would be fine with me but 50 rounds is shit and once again i find myself doing boring tasks instead of playing.

[Solar]

Many are gonna hate me for this but i dont like inconsistences...
10mm AP is in 100 batch so its atm cheaper to craft then JHP (for those that wants to whine its a bug , alot of ammo was bugged this way i think this one is last)
happy nerfing uhmm... i mean fixing ^_^

To quote myself from a few posts ago

There are / were (depending on which version we have re-updated to) bugs with the low level ammo. They should all be coming in 50s, but some were left as 100s in error.

You said any base material after being crafted is multiplied by 2, right?
So 1 metal part = 2 ore, both of which have a base price of 30? (2*30) And then that is multiplied by 2 because you again crafted something using them? (2*30*2)?
If so, then shouldn't 6 gunpowder there be base price of minerals (30?) times 2 for crafting, and times 2 for crafting? 6*30*2*2 which equals 720
Or is iron ore worth 30 and minerals only 15?

Base price of 30 ... *2 for being worked into gunpowder, then there is no bonus for double working something.

Why change all ammo quantities to 50's?It slows down the game which has already been slowed alot by dropping xp from critters and less xp from crafting.You made crafting easier in some ways and more tedious in others.Im not whining,I absolutely love the new scavenging feature and the risky runs to bh for better materials but once its all done i dont have much to show for it and I still have to go and get ammo.I do already use the traders whenever I can but they are plauged with the same issues they always encounter after a few days of playing which means that for the most part they are full of useless shit.An increase of ammo crafted at once with the same xp would be fine with me but 50 rounds is shit and once again i find myself doing boring tasks instead of playing.

This is another change due to the moa.. suggestions of players.

As I'm sure you've worked out, things take as long as their price dictates. If things were to be crafted in 100s (some higher ammo types still are) then you would simply double the crafting time. So crafting 50 ammo, immediatly followed by crafting another 50 - which you can do because of cumulative crafting timeout - gives the exact same results.

The benefit of reducing it to 50 is that it keeps more of the cumulative timeout for crafting other things, if you so desire.

All it does it add about 4 or 5 clicks on, but gives greater flexibility.

[Tyler]

It does more than add clicks,it adds trips to the mine and back which adds more time.The first few times I did it were ok but now after I dont know how many times of the same 6 trips for 300 rounds of ammo it has become boring and tedious.After you make 300 rounds you go and fight but usually not for very long because an smg eats ammo pretty quickly.So once again your doing the same 6 trips and it ends up being very similliar to what we had before the wipe except this time the scenery is better.Is it at all possible to seperate cost and time?I personally dont mind if price and xp for ammo stays as it is while the ammount crafted rises to 100 at a time.Its like you say,price is based on time spent so keep the price and free us from the workbench a bit more without screwing with cooldowns and messing with the ecomony.Im not 100% on the price of 50 rounds right now but I believe its something like 450 caps and I would have absolutely no problem with getting that same ammount for 100 if it means I have more time away from mines and benches.

[Attero]

0&1 tier ammo are produced in 50 , tier 2 &3 (i think there is no tier 3 ammo) are produced in 100 . also the higher tier got better mats to amount ratio.