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Where is action these days ?

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Nice_Boat:

--- Quote from: JovankaB on March 11, 2013, 08:41:27 am ---I understand you are so excited about this article, because it perfectly represents your mindset. But I'm afraid you have to simply accept that in this game some players can really have fun in different way than you do, even if you don't understand it. It really doesn't make sense to apply your mindset to everyone, it's not Street Fighter or Quake Arena match. If you play it like that, that's perfectly fine, but you have to acknowledge that some people don't and aren't interested in playing the game the same way you do.

--- End quote ---

Basically what you're saying is that FOnline is a sandbox and there are different ways of finding fun within the game. It's hard not to agree with that. Nevertheless, I think you missed the fact that being the "most badass player on the server" gives you a lot of freedom to do whatever the hell you want. Believe me or not, back when towns were alive the PvP players also roleplayed, screwed around with their buddies and other people and even went on hunting trips, having the same sort of fun newbies have (before they move on to a different game). The difference is that when faced with other PvPers, bombers etc. they could handle themselves instead of being, you know, blown to bits. In the end, absolutely every player wants to overcome what he's faced with, it's just that people who don't do TC are using sub-optimal means of empowering themselves, which means they're scrubs. I dare you to find a single player that isn't happy about leveling up, skilling up, getting perks and getting guns, or whatever it is he's using. You're not going to find that player, because that player doesn't exit - and the point is that on 2238, becoming a member of a TC gang is a step up, a way to advance beyond maxing out your levels and gear. In the end, the PvPer can do all the stuff you wrote about without fearing anything and do some more demanding stuff whenever he feels like it.

What I'm saying is that the "playing to win" philosophy applies to all games that allow players to act hostile towards each other, even MMORPGs. You could say it's game theory, applied. Just read the Greedy Goblin blog if you want to see how it relates to MMORPGs (and hence FOnline), that dude is one of the richest people in the entire EVE Online (I hope you understand how competitive that game is, despite being an MMORPG and despite being a sandbox with free PvP and no safe locations, much like FOnline), so it's hard to refute what he's got to say with a simple "but I'm having fun, lel."

Anyway odds are high you're not even really being honest, because I don't think you were having fun being shot to bits numerous times by me or Kilgore, I'd even risk stating that you seemed butthurt and there were tears, so you kept returning to grief us with your tanky FA build (which obviously failed, because ammo is cheap and shooting people is fun).

The tl;dr version is that yeah, FOnline is a sandbox, the point of a sandbox is the fact that you can do whatever the hell you want if you have the skills and the logistics to do so, PvPers have them, other players don't. It's not even the PvPers fault, it's your fault for making TC the only way of getting to that point.

Kelin:

--- Quote from: Mrockatansky on March 11, 2013, 11:07:38 am ---Farming is so incredibly overpowerd that one has to wonder why there was put such an effort in craftingsystem in teh first place.

--- End quote ---
Man you don't get it at all. You want private mines full of materials which can be used for crafting at Gunrunners workbench, which means those people would be never forced to leave their safe world. Farming is not overpowered, in fact farming is the best thing this game can offer (in terms of gear obtaining).

Yesterday I was farming VC patrols and I was pretty confident nobody would enter my encounter but guess what, 6 guys spawned and I had to decide what to do. I could try to kill them, leave or die. My choice doesn't really matter, what matters is that the forced player interaction took place. That's something your concept totally lacks. Though I don't like the idea of advanced workbenches and crafting in general, I do see the purpose of putting workbenches to unsafe locations. It's an attempt to get closer to the farming concept which means you want something valuable but you also have to risk something valuable.

T-888:

--- Quote from: Giftless on March 11, 2013, 08:25:40 am ---Yeah, I was seeing a lot of pro "skill" in getting one-shotted by Laser Gatling insta-deaths. It's about as boring as playing against somebody who has cheat codes in place.

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That's precisely a scrubs way of thinking, your own mental rules which prevent you to fully participate in certain activities and compete, what did you except if your not wearing armor? Or you don't have an appropriate character and the rest of your buddies are the same level, naive thinking scrubs. Then suddenly it is boring and your having fun differently on top of million excuses.


--- Quote from: JovankaB on March 11, 2013, 08:41:27 am ---I have fun, the rest doesn't really matter to me. I don't care about "the most efficient" if it involves activities which are boring for me or things that I don't find very interesting or annoy me. It makes no sense for me to be the most efficient if I won't enjoy the game. I would rather stop playing altogether.

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Play to win is just only one way how to look at it, there are far more effective and universal approaches to this subject.

Indifferent, at this point of discussing your and my own personal preferences are below anything objective.


--- Quote from: JovankaB on March 11, 2013, 08:41:27 am ---Look, the article makes perfect sense if you play a game like Street Fighter (that's what the author of this article used to do and that's where the "scrub" term comes from), because the only thing there you can do is to bash your opponents with fists, throw at floor etc until the match is over and there is nothing else to do. So yea, I understand what "scrub" means there. It's basically equivalent of PvP losers in FOnline, who lose a fight, try to find excuses and whine about swarms, militia, mercenaries, sneaks, bombers etc. But MMORPG games (even 2238 with so little content) are much more complex, and you can have fun in various different ways as long as you don't have too narrow mindset, players have different mindsets and different goals.

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The article is universal to any game, but it doesn't touch certain subjects relevant to 2238, like player interaction in general.

Player interaction should be key focus at any time, for all players and there's a real problem when most of players of the server simply aren't interacting with anyone, their invisible, they do not contribute to make a living, breathing game environment fun to play. Look, proper player interaction is the milestone of all successful such type of games, it doesn't matter whether the guy likes to shoot scorpions and be happy or he is some mad, refined pro that kills people with his mean look and achieves the highest level of play in his own light, but the most important thing is for players to fucking meet and play together, what this game lacks that brings players together in some, any way.


--- Quote from: JovankaB on March 11, 2013, 08:41:27 am ---I don't really think most of Mad Maxes could be called scrubs, from my experience many of them actually enjoy the harshness a lot and don't whine about unfairness. Some might, but not more than you can see "pro" players doing this in gang issues. Calling them scrubs, noobs or bad players makes no sense, because they simply aren't trying to compete the way you do. They aren't trying to beat the shit out of everyone and be the biggest badasses on the server. They are here to have fun time with their friends, play the way they like, explore, hunt, when they stop having fun, they move to another game. And you are treated simply as a part of hostile environment of the game, nothing more - like some overpowered Enclave with a brain on top ;D

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Scrubs is not only whining, and being in denial with something, it is a way of thinking. They are scrubs, because they have their own mental set up of rules that prevents them to play in the most effective fashion which intelligent players will do and then there are plenty of scrubs here on 2238 which come and whine on the forum how hard it is to farm and do anything, but yet their own play-style, way of thinking makes it so. Scrubs. They chose to not have fun in a part of game which they observe as too complicated or time consuming whether the good players will leave question marks.


--- Quote from: JovankaB on March 11, 2013, 08:41:27 am ---You seem to be incredibly butthurt, because some people have fun and you don't even notice them because they don't participate in TC and New Reno skirmishes like you do. What's worse, they seem to have fun together. How dare they :)

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Nessy, the only one who is hurt here is you, this reeks of hurt of players like us that just beat you to the wall in every aspect of the game in a pathetic display of how are you having fun. ;D


--- Quote from: JovankaB on March 11, 2013, 08:41:27 am ---I understand you are so excited about this article, because it perfectly represents your mindset. But I'm afraid you have to simply accept that in this game some players can really have fun in different way than you do, even if you don't understand it. It really doesn't make sense to apply your mindset to everyone, it's not Street Fighter or Quake Arena match. If you play it like that, that's perfectly fine, but you have to acknowledge that some people don't and aren't interested in playing the game the same way you do.

--- End quote ---

I discuss to win, that's why I am good at a verbal play, because I'm motivated to do it and not just another bad troll like the rest of the scrubs here. Yes, even if it means insulting players to set them off balance and point just manipulate them in the direction I desire.

Like I said, personal preference is kinda below the whole point of the problem.

BenKain:

--- Quote from: JovankaB on March 11, 2013, 08:41:27 am ---And you are treated simply as a part of hostile environment of the game, nothing more - like some overpowered Enclave with a brain on top ;D

--- End quote ---

Exactly! I'm not whining that we were killed. In fact, I laughed for several minutes afterwards. DMC swept in and ate us so fast we had to send in a scout to figure out what the fuck just happened! But we treated it as exactly what is was, players more powerful then us. By design or skill, it doesn't truly matter.

What does matter, are the continuing "crafter n00b" comments. So what if we garner enjoyment in a different fashion than you? Again, if you want to see more players in TC, take on a protege and train him.   

Mrockatansky:

--- Quote from: Kelin on March 11, 2013, 01:30:24 pm ---Man you don't get it at all. You want private mines full of materials which can be used for crafting at Gunrunners workbench, which means those people would be never forced to leave their safe world. Farming is not overpowered, in fact farming is the best thing this game can offer (in terms of gear obtaining).

Yesterday I was farming VC patrols and I was pretty confident nobody would enter my encounter but guess what, 6 guys spawned and I had to decide what to do. I could try to kill them, leave or die. My choice doesn't really matter, what matters is that the forced player interaction took place. That's something your concept totally lacks. Though I don't like the idea of advanced workbenches and crafting in general, I do see the purpose of putting workbenches to unsafe locations. It's an attempt to get closer to the farming concept which means you want something valuable but you also have to risk something valuable.

--- End quote ---

What you don't seem to understand is that you farm because that's the most efficient way obtaining gear at the moment, the game forces you to do it in some way.
Wich is what i dont' get, you are right here. I don't want that.
I rembember farming rawmaterials -not items- beeing a fun activity.
I remember populated town workbenches including thiefes, unpatient jerks bursting you and whatnot.
Sad enough that random and rare encounters while farming are the only time you meet people out of your faction.
Maybe i was wrong about the baseworkbenches and they should be removed completely. The priv. mine and the promised adv. benches just came to my mind as examples for an unbalanced system, that has undergone so many changes, so much effort from devs and suggesting players alike, that its just a shame seeing it so useless as it is right now after having crafted the first M60 and _farmed_ the first Khans.
I don't even remember when i visited any mine for the last time.
Farm random crap, use 300 science. Its convinient but an unintended bypass imo.

So how do we solve that whole thing of contradicting mechanics?

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