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[Skycast]

Very funny to me, a few days we were preparing this action: trained mercenaries, craft ammo, develop tactics for each city. And because of this ONE DAY you cry so much.


P.S. Dead Masters Army:

Cry more.

[blahblah]

But i wonder, how successful FOnline would be without Fallout background.

If marketed properly, it'd surely be more popular than Tibia.

[Nice_Boat]

I love the way Star Trek mass-grid insertion tactics allowed by preview spam are A-ok for NA, but the same exact tactics with mutant mercenaries are suddenly bad when employed by DMC. Am I the only one seeing the irony here? You say you have your own mutants or can afford buying them Lordus - why don't you bring them over and over again till both gangs deplete their cash stocks? You'd have your precious merc-free PvP in no time. But I guess the truth is you missed something that changed in the game and you don't have the means to instantly adapt. You can't stand having your numerical advantage nullified, so you want the devs to change the game so your group could be on top again in no time. Because you're the good NA, and they're the bad DMC. The thing is your enemies worked long and hard to get to this point, so why don't you quit whining, take it like a man and do the same? You know, the way THEY did it. Cause it's getting annoying. It's not the first time. It's the same people complaining over and over again about something in the game prohibiting them from winning each and every time. Here's a bit of history:

- proto-NA players getting killed by instakills - > whine for instakill nerf -> instakills get nerfed
- NA instakill-snipers getting killed by BGs (cause BGs have the highest guaranteed damage output and the NA is still in the instakill era) - > whine for BG nerf - > BGs get nerfed
- NA BG-users getting killed by Mutants (mutants can no longer be easily killed because all weapons lost a fair share of their killing power and the NA is still back in the BG era)  - > whine for a Mutant nerf.

See the pattern with a subtle coating of hipocrysy here?

Seriously guys, you're responsible for most of the general whining here while the game always was and probably always will be more or less balanced because everyone can use more or less the same stuff to achieve more or less the same goals. The only thing whining has ever brought to the table was making combat less lethal because what's nerfed seems to cannot be unnerfed. So just stop it. If mutants get weaker, somebody's going to come up with something else. The sad thing is that if it's not going to be you, the forum is going to get flooded with bullshit again and the devs will probably spend the precious little time they have fine-tuning something that'd be working just fine with a playerbase focused on actually playing instead of changing the game to suit their temporary agenda. Personally, I'm surprised you didn't ask for GM-style godmode for your faction members yet.

The solution? Nerf the nerfing. The game was at its best and was played way more dynamically when every single full AP attack (no matter the weapon as long as it was ranged) could kill you no matter how tough you thought you were. Just restore the pre-wipe weapon and ammo values and let it be.

[Lordus]

 I must respond.

 First, 30 people on mumble is not equal to 30 PvP player ready in one gang. More people you have, bigger communication, tactic, friendly fire, looting problem is. Most of currently czech playing players in NA have not their own metal armor, because they joined us before few days and they were not prepared for PvP style of play we did.

 But ok, they enjoeyed the fight, they did not camp all the time over the world map, they take their best avaible stuff. So NA had cca 10-14 "hardcore" players ready to fight separated by language in their gang groups, all of others were experienced fonline players, but our kind of PvP (NA, Cajuns, RD, DMC, SOT,...) newbies. Maybe it is surprise for you, but 10 pure pvp players from different countries are not equal to 10 pure pvp player from one language region.

 The point is, that all of us risked our equip, newbies risked their hardly crafted, in price of 50-100 k caps per one. And what risked DMC? One supermutant is stronger than any other real player, has power of one PvP BG rocket launcher soldier and his price is less then 1/3 of real player BG soldie and mutant does not loose armorr. Do you see that difference or not? I dont want to start flame like many of you did, but if you dont see difference, this discusion with you is over.

 As i said, i was part of VSB that agreed with supermutants tactic. We died in Den some weeks before, because we spawned in south and some enemy spawned there cca 7 supermutants. All of us did not expected this, so we died quickly. Ok then, you were smart, we were not prepared for this. I vindicated your tactic, because i know you only try to eliminate the players amount difference.
 
 But yesterday fight was something difference. There were more mutants than your players, you totaly swarmed all exidgrids with mutants, your mutant jockeys died and then you simply relog to another characters, mutants were still in the city killing us and you continiued in fight. We have absolutely no chance to do something with this. I am sorry, we have: pur only chance is to hire 20 supermunats (yes, we have chars with needed stats to do it, and money from city capturing) and use our supermutants on yours. But this is not the reason why we PvP. We want to challenge real players.

 Boys, i am not whining that we lost the fight. Me and most of VSB dont afraid any almost suicide attack in the cities. Just remember, who is attacking you in Modoc in late hours: our 4 players are challenging your 7 players there + 5 of your supermutants.. We kill your 3 players, looted them, exit the city and then.. return for another fight, when we die, ok np, it was fun, and we tried it again. But situation, that one supermutant is more powerfull than one real player and his price is kind of joke.. no, this is not balance.

 Instakills: i am sniper, i did not lobbed for instakills nerfing, but i agree that the fight is now little longer = more fun
 BGs: yes, they have very deadly potential in oposite of others build. Any build should not dominate over others in all combat aspects.. Look at the Team Fortress 2 (i know that TF2 is realtime, for christ), but there are cca 7 characters (and more guns) and all of them are totaly balanced. Developers have hardly balanced 2 builds after half of year of existence of the game. I asked them, why they dont rebuild the system, that most of players will have to use SG automatic riffle class, minority will use sniper class (little nerfed) and biggunner class (huge nerfed too). Fights will be then longer. But most of you must have the best of the best (minigun animation because of small dicks or dunno why) and you are blind to balancing.
 Mutants: heh, this is artillery.. Ok, giwe me some countermeasure to this: i. e. Vertbird bomber, suicide psyched dogs in price of 10k caps each or i dont know.

 So boys, read my all suggestion and look that i am not whining because of i died in battle, but because this game need much more balance than exist now. You find some unbalanced, overpowered mechanism, so it must be reduced. Or make strategy game from fonline, give us mobile mutant barracs, .. but i will rather play Natural Selection then, if fonline will change in the strategy game.

[kusoksna]

Lordus, you mean that  NA can't find some money for supermutants. You said that NA have 30+ player, and DMC 3 times less.
I play only 1 week on 2238 (and played fallout series before ), i can make easily couple of thousands in one hour. I don't think money is that difficult in that game.
I'm sure that this was very good example, that game is balanced: number of players is less important than their skills. I don't think that outnumbering should rule in this game. Even in WoW which is very casual, skills play more than gear and quantity.

So, do you mean that NA is completely not-skilled and badly equiped?

[Nice_Boat]

Why would having long fights with multiple landing hits be any better than having it fast and furious like they it to be? What, is getting up, running for cover, getting FA and going back in till one side loses their ammo or scores a burst critical hit that enjoyable?

Let's have a rundown of the most common complaints about weapon and tactical balance right now (I've included a few hypothetical but very much possible ones that are simply bound to happen if the devs don't change the course):

- most guns are worthless for PvP
- critical-based weapons are overpowered
- burst-based weapons are overpowered
- explosion-based weapons are overpowered
- mercenaries are overpowered
- drugs are overpowered

And compare the "now" to "then" (or vanilla F2):

1. Most guns are worthless for PvP
Now - yeah. Everything including criticals is more or less HP based (what's the difference between a Plasma Rifle scoring an x3 critical each time and a Minigun? they each take HP, so it's all about stun vs easier clicking), so only the top tier weapons are useable. Because bigger damage output owns you.
Then - nope. See that dude with a laspistol and a jacket? You've got your avenger and CA, but he's going to blow your brains out with a single hit. Or maybe not. But you can't really ignore him, right?
2. Critical-based weapons are overpowered
Now - oh, they just take your HPs anyway. Who cares. Yeah, you could decrease their damage output, but hey - you're increasing the relative damage output of burst-based stuff.
Then - yeah, they take you down with one shot. But you're still on 0 HP and there's your buddy to get you up. A Minigun with two shots is going to mess you up all the same, but there's no going back into the fight after that. Who's gonna be faster? Who was detected first? What's your relative position, situational awareness etc? There's definitely much more going on than a simple -HP exchange.
3. Burst-based weapons are overpowered
Now - yeah, they definitely take your HPs away. So make them take away less. Or more. You're messing with critical-based relative power while doing that anyway.
Then - they can shred 2 or 3 people, but you better think about approaching that sniper without him seeing you first to utilise the advantage of not having to click twice. Definitely more tactical.
4. Explosion-based weapons are overpowered
Now and Then - same shit again.
5. Mercenaries are overpowered
Now - you could always bring yours. But yeah, it's hard to counter without having your personnal army here. Sorry, can't help you man.
Then - see that mutie, Mr. Scope? One bullet from your rifle and it's all over for him. But hey, Mr. Big is screwed, so I can see why did they bring him here.
6. Drugs are overpowered
Now - yeah, they give an advantage that sometimes seems unfair, but you can still take them out with plasma grenades if they're on psycho so I guess it's ok. But decrease the damage output of anything a bit more and see what happens.
Then - yeah, they give an advantage but that doesn't change the fact that critical hits work. And that unnerfed Minigun was ok too I guess. So yeah, you better have proper distance and act fast, but you can take them out.

See how it goes? The devs dropped the ball when they did the first critical nerf screwing over the entire combat mechanic and eliminating most of the common hard counters and unpredictability from the game. It used to be exciting. Now it mostly comes down to "who's got more HP and better resistance" (armor, drugs, EN, lifegiver) and "who can take their HP faster" (the top gun - everyone's using it, it changes with what's being nerfed right now, lots of AP to shoot it as fast as possible). Is that fun? It sometimes feels like standing in front of your opponent and stabbing him with your fork in the gut in robotic intervals and vice-versa until one of you bleeds out. Oh, and you're both constantly applying plasma packs and painkillers as you go. Nerfing anything at this point is only going to make it worse.

The "balancing" done here (aside from removing sneak as it was) is an endless self-propelling spiral of bullshit. Just scrap it and stick to the old stuff. It'd be way better that way.

[duorden]

Very funny to me, a few days we were preparing this action: trained mercenaries, craft ammo, develop tactics for each city. And because of this ONE DAY you cry so much.


P.S. Dead Masters Army:

Cry more.

lol, rofl and etc.

you forgot to write about your multiwindows cheats when one play 2-3 chars with mutants

2dev

remove mutants-merc from game,it turns the game into an extraordinary spectacle

[kusoksna]

duorden, if you say that "you forgot to write about your multiwindows cheats when one play 2-3 chars with mutants" without any proofs,
then I can say easily: "duorden is gaylady and eat shit"

Devs! please remove all range weapons. They are overpowered, and anyone can kill me! Let's stuck with spears and knifes! Oh, yeah, and no drugs, cos I don't know how to use them!

[Wichura]

Devs! please remove all range weapons. They are overpowered, and anyone can kill me! Let's stuck with spears and knifes!

SPARTA!

:>

[Lordus]

Lordus, you mean that  NA can't find some money for supermutants. You said that NA have 30+ player, and DMC 3 times less.
I play only 1 week on 2238 (and played fallout series before ), i can make easily couple of thousands in one hour. I don't think money is that difficult in that game.
I'm sure that this was very good example, that game is balanced: number of players is less important than their skills. I don't think that outnumbering should rule in this game. Even in WoW which is very casual, skills play more than gear and quantity.

So, do you mean that NA is completely not-skilled and badly equiped?

 We dont want play warcraft here.. we want challenge real players. Not only NPC. It is not problem, if you have one or two supermutants, but when you have five per one, you die and you relog then, it is problem.

 30+ but most of them was unleveled and unequiped. Or they had thir last armors,.. because they did not have manufacture, like big gangs.. And enemy just go, buy with cheap money overpowered supermutants and destroy many hour world of that newbie players.. This is not balance.

[Lordus]

Let's have a rundown of the most common complaints about weapon and tactical balance right now (I've included a few hypothetical but very much possible ones that are simply bound to happen if the devs don't change the course):

 You must level up days or weeks your char, you must craft 10+ hours to get PvP equip (for one fight). And you can die after few seconds.. Well, this is not enough balanced fights..

[Killy]

remember what ghosthack said? money out of the air, this is really funny, they are using mutants that cost them nothing and they have guts to write this shit here ...

[Nice_Boat]

You must level up days or weeks your char, you must craft 10+ hours to get PvP equip (for one fight). And you can die after few seconds.. Well, this is not enough balanced fights..

Is crafting 10+ hours for a less entertaining and less balanced fight that's only a few seconds longer worth it? Besides that's another complaint I have with this stuff. What you're saying is not analytical. It concerns economy and crafting more than combat. And yeah, economy is also messed up since the wipe. If you were able to farm mediocre stuff (normal miniguns, ammo, LSWs, lasers) while having the new crafting in place for starting and top-tier equipment everyone would probably be happy. But no, it's all grind and then it's all a 2-minute long shitty fight that allows you to grind less the next day if you win. Another flawed design choice. Don't you think that it'd be better to fix both issues separately instead of complaining that nothing can be done since they're connected on some abstract level? Breaking the game took about a month of updating and a lot of brainstorming, I think that fixing it wouldn't take much longer since most of the stuff is already there. It's just a matter of replacing something that didn't work with something that worked.

[Surf]

If you were able to farm mediocre stuff (normal miniguns, ammo, LSWs, lasers) while having the new crafting in place for starting and top-tier equipment everyone would probably be happy.

This sounds really good. I'd rather replace those items with even a bit more low "tier" stuff like normal shotguns etc., but I like it.

[Nice_Boat]

This sounds really good. I'd rather replace those items with even a bit more low "tier" stuff like normal shotguns etc., but I like it.

The idea in general is to get all the people who want to PvP some basic stuff to do so (shotguns sadly won't do) without spending half of the day crafting while keeping pure powerplayers in a position of slight advantage. It worked really well before the wipe when CA was just painful to get - most people were running around with metal armor mk2 and generally good guns, there was a lot of action and fun to be had and the real hardcore ones that'd spend half a day looking for plasma rifles or CAs would be way better off but still very much inside of reach of more humble fighters. Since crafting CAs and the best weapons is almost just as painful as it used to be to hunt for them, it'd be pretty much the same but with an additional option to craft instead of treasure hunting. That'd make the 2238 society divide somewhat naturally into 4 layers:
- newbies/bluesuits - nuff said. They never really get any stuff until they learn to play. If they do, they lose it in a matter of minutes.
- beginners - pistols, jackets, shotguns... you've all seen it, you all know it. Beginner crafters and so on, with no real game knowledge and/or companions to go farming with.
- the middle ground - they have their gangs, they farm stuff, they get the "standard issue" generic BG/EW/SG from caravans, wear leather or metal armors, can PvP without risking to lose very important stuff in a matter of seconds
- top-tier players - they want best gear, they craft it. They don't die that much anyway, and even if they do they don't get eliminated for long hours after a skirmish gone wrong.

What it does, aside from giving everyone more fun and removing the GRIND FUCKING EVERYTHING phenomenon is making PvP accessible for everyone with mediocre knowledge of the game and up. Currently there's a sharp barier between people who know how to PvP and people who don't and there's no real means of breaching the gap. Now if some of the required stuff (it's just weapons and ammo anyway) is farmable, they can learn without being hurt too much. That's a good thing. They won't start wearing best stuff until they're sure they can manage without losing it.

This of course would make NPC shops easy dumping grounds. So just make farmed weapons have a visible tag and make them dirt cheap. I mean "this laser was made in the NCR, I want no trouble sir" kind of thing. Or make the shops stop buying after, say, 5 duplicates of a given weapon are in stock (weapons only, what kind of a nutjob would sell ammo anyway?) so that they don't get flooded with farmed stuff. It'd do good for having a nice selection of common guns if some crazy loner wanted to buy them too.

Two simple solutions - and all the problems most people have with this game are gone and 2238 is once again awesome. I mean... why wouldn't you want to do that?