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Author Topic: Real Fallout or Paradise?  (Read 2945 times)

Real Fallout or Paradise?
« on: July 06, 2012, 02:37:55 pm »

Guys, I just watched one film that really inspired me to share with you. At start, sorry for my english. But back to the topic. I guess most of you guys, if not all, are here cause we love the Fallout world (even ultra NCR trolls i guess). Anyway, though i like to participate in postapocaliptic world, i would rather participate only in virual world. Current global economic and society system is going to fall, cause its based on money and unequality. Check this video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KphWsnhZ4Ag, its considering the problem: are humanity is going to fall in oblivion or we will live in paradise? I would personally left the things as it is, but i feel that it can occure its not possible in close future. See you and i hope we will make the world better, well, if not better, then just prevail, cause if we stay in situation i think humanity will kill itself.
« Last Edit: July 06, 2012, 02:44:03 pm by Wiktor_pl »
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boatshift

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Re: Real Fallout or Paradise?
« Reply #1 on: July 06, 2012, 08:25:34 pm »

the world is dying everyone knows it humanity is the problem we are killing what we love slowly
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Re: Real Fallout or Paradise?
« Reply #2 on: July 06, 2012, 08:33:20 pm »

Thanks for sharing. This reminds me though of the many practice communities that already tried ideas like these. Notably the Oneida Community and Koreshan Unity. And others.

Here's a list of Utopian communities: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Utopian_communities

The Venus Project looks like a modern Utopian community idea.
« Last Edit: July 06, 2012, 08:46:08 pm by chocolate_chip_cookies »
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Re: Real Fallout or Paradise?
« Reply #3 on: July 07, 2012, 12:39:09 pm »

The saddest thing is that humanity is capable of doing such thing, but it seems like it wont work anyway. Its because of lack of education and manipulation from media (which media are well educated people, using their knowledge to make others worse) that make people shallow/narrow view of world, which is "to work, eat, sleep, fuck, watch TV/computer" and nothing more. If everyone was educated enough and had posibility to develope himself, to live, not only exist, people would understood the urge of that kind of society. But, again, governments arent likely to make education the way it should be - exploring the world instead of aquiring dry knowlegde from books to make good marks and to pass to next class - because educated people are hard to control. It sucks, damn it, sucks so hard, cause, like that guy said in the film, we got technology advanced enough to make our planet Paradise in 10 years. Anyway, if i would see any chance it could work i would be in first row willing to help. I think what we can do is to raise our childrens to become educated and sensitive people, who will, maybe someday, create Paradise on Earth. Moreover, it actually might be different than communism or other skewed Utopia ideas that were  if everyone would be well educated - educated people are hard to decieve.
God, it made me really reflecting. :D
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Nice_Boat

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Re: Real Fallout or Paradise?
« Reply #4 on: July 07, 2012, 06:53:33 pm »

Current global economic and society system is going to fall, cause its based on money and unequality. Check this video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KphWsnhZ4Ag, its considering the problem: are humanity is going to fall in oblivion or we will live in paradise? I would personally left the things as it is, but i feel that it can occure its not possible in close future. See you and i hope we will make the world better, well, if not better, then just prevail, cause if we stay in situation i think humanity will kill itself.
To be honest, it reeks of communism redux with some new aesthetics and a large dose of Greenpeace ideology. Even assuming stuff like that is being directed by well-meaning people there's always the issue of control and abuse of power when they pass away. Democracy and free trade involving money (preferably real, using something like the gold standard) work because they're systematically immune to tyranny to a large extent - and tyranny not only makes your life miserable if you're not among the privileged ruling class, it also hurts scientific progress and economic growth. Basically, I wouldn't want to be a part of society created by delusional hippies who seem to easily forget mankind has been down that road before and it sucked.
« Last Edit: July 07, 2012, 06:56:34 pm by Nice_Boat »
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Johnnybravo

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Re: Real Fallout or Paradise?
« Reply #5 on: July 08, 2012, 12:16:05 am »

You replace tyranny of man with tyranny of money. Democracy is wrong, if people are supposed to rule using elected representatives, all it takes is veil of lies to turn it into oligarchic society. And what worse democracy allows all of this to happen without people having chance to realize that.

Though rule of one man or party is no better, actually the difference is that they don't even have to hide their interests, making it much easier to ruin life for everyone else. In my opinion the solution lies within the evolution of mankind and not in some system that can never eliminate problems coming from the nature of the man.

As for the vid, I quit it in the mid, as most of it sound like some kind of conspiration theory.
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Nice_Boat

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Re: Real Fallout or Paradise?
« Reply #6 on: July 08, 2012, 12:56:17 pm »

Every political system deteriorates and erodes over time because the people and institutions running the show want to have more power. Doesn't have to be malicious, it's the same with bureaucracy - people working as bureaucrats identify with their institution more than with the society in general and consequently work for the "benefit" of said institution expanding its influence (and the level of bureaucracy in general). This process can be slowed down via constitutional checks and balances and, generally speaking, good laws - but since societies change and evolve, it's pretty hard to predict everything that could go wrong. Sadly, I believe that Thomas Jefferson was spot on right when he said that "the tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." In my opinion it speaks volumes about the nature of our societies and species in general. I think that we could agree that while democracy surely isn't perfect, it doesn't require this kind maintenance as often as, say, dictatorships.
« Last Edit: July 08, 2012, 05:11:28 pm by Nice_Boat »
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Mr Feltzer

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Re: Real Fallout or Paradise?
« Reply #7 on: July 10, 2012, 09:42:35 am »

Democracy is shit, but Its still better than any other form of Governmental system ( communism, monarch, tyranny ect )
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Re: Real Fallout or Paradise?
« Reply #8 on: July 10, 2012, 01:36:21 pm »

Well, maybe because i wish so much the world would be better i get a little too excited about that whole idea at start, but cold reflecsion about the subject made me feel that we're really far away from that kind of social system, if its not beyond our reach.

      How the guys said in film, its all because we've raised in society based on competition, and you have to compete to achieve something in your life. Competition means you need to win your fights with others on many leves of your life to get food, stuff you need, place to live etc. That means that you have to be better than others, but you can do it by developing yourself or by , but that also means that you can stay the same if people you fight will get worse. They made some researches and from their researches it occures that people dont want money or power - they want things that comes after it, like luxury, wellbeing etc. (sorry for my english).

      You see, the main idea of that project is to make everybody wealth (it means, wealth in various goods they demand) by using technology which suppose to eliminate greed, abuse, slavery(in many ways we got it these times). If everyone got they demands fulfilled, they wont be needing to have powers over other people. Of course, it sounds like dream, but its dream i could believe in, i'm not naive though, dont think, i know how people are these days. It wont be able to make it for long long time, but the key is good education of young people so they can understand this planet is for everyone and raising them in culture of respect for others. Thats the first step, and maybe in long future we will succeed.

      The idea is to not give this kind of governmental system by strenght, but make people willing it.
      About communism: Of course i dont forget about humanity last falses, I know that it didnt worked out in XX century, but look now - we got way to communicate with whole world, we can travel almost everywhere in one day. Technology changes a lot imo, and educated people arent easy to manipulate. Educated and well raised people makes that kind of society in XX(?)century possible (dont know which century, though).

     About democracy: Its not that good as you say. Lot of corruption in the governments caused by politicians greed makes this wheel going to crush. Also, world global debt is raising in great speed because of borrows - and countries can only borrow more money from banks, which will result in that situation in near future: bankers will have most of the money, people will not be able to buy anythings and we will start barter again. Good look with barter trade in our times... :sick:

     Oh, and i almost forgot to say: Ok, you can say that human history says: "we're always fighting and competing" but i think its wrong to say that this is human nature or nature of the mankind. Humanity is beyond instincts from when they aquired the knowledge how to make fire, and of course, we're part of the nature and instincts and feelings are the important part of every one of us (except sociopaths, thats about feelings :D), but who would not like to live in wealth? Like the guy in film said, we're under huge influence of the culture we're raising in. And there are a really lot of people on the world who are a good people and would like to help ones who didnt had the luck of born in wealth countries like we and i dont think they would mind spend the time on togheters work to make world better.
    Also, the first thing the guy in the film said is that it cant work till everyone is satisfied with the goods they got - otherwise we will be still fighting each other for goods.
« Last Edit: July 10, 2012, 01:48:20 pm by Wiktor_pl »
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Nice_Boat

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Re: Real Fallout or Paradise?
« Reply #9 on: July 10, 2012, 04:09:48 pm »

How the guys said in film, its all because we've raised in society based on competition, and you have to compete to achieve something in your life. Competition means you need to win your fights with others on many leves of your life to get food, stuff you need, place to live etc. That means that you have to be better than others, but you can do it by developing yourself or by , but that also means that you can stay the same if people you fight will get worse.
That's how nature works, if we didn't compete we wouldn't advance our technology and societies. Just think about how different civilizations fared across history... some had very tight caste systems and they always were dominated or sidetracked by civilizations with more emphasis on individualism, flexibility and, yes - competition. I mean Western civilization tended to judge people based on merits and skills after the enlightenment period - and it turned out dominating the entire globe for centuries. It took 100 years of socialist experimentation to weaken this hold enough to let nations like China and India into competition - and even then they're still far behind.

They made some researches and from their researches it occures that people dont want money or power - they want things that comes after it, like luxury, wellbeing etc. (sorry for my english).
One of the most basic principles of economy is that people have infinite needs and wants in the world of limited resources and supplies. Money is the most convenient way of exchanging what we can produce for what we need, so doing away with that would actually take us a long way back. As for power, not everyone prioritizes it but there's a lot of people who do and who take great satisfaction in pursuing it - we're social animals after all. Besides - what is luxury? Does this term hold the same meaning for a CEO of a large Western company and a poor farmer somewhere in Somalia? Of course not, but if you put the farmer in the CEOs shoes he's going to crave more. Limited resources, infinite needs.

You see, the main idea of that project is to make everybody wealth (it means, wealth in various goods they demand) by using technology which suppose to eliminate greed, abuse, slavery(in many ways we got it these times). If everyone got they demands fulfilled, they wont be needing to have powers over other people. Of course, it sounds like dream, but its dream i could believe in, i'm not naive though, dont think, i know how people are these days. It wont be able to make it for long long time, but the key is good education of young people so they can understand this planet is for everyone and raising them in culture of respect for others. Thats the first step, and maybe in long future we will succeed.
The only way technology could eliminate social struggles caused by wealth basically invalidating our current economic models would be if we somehow managed to produce stuff out of thin air. But then we wouldn't need any hippie projects, we'd basically be gods traveling through space and molding entire solar systems to our whims.... and probably we'd still engage in some sort of power struggles to create some sort of social order.

The idea is to not give this kind of governmental system by strenght, but make people willing it.
You can't have a functional government without it using strength. Basically, every government exists only because it has the capacity for violence against people who dislike the social order it creates. That's why utopias where everyone exists solely within the system and is heavily controlled are so dangerous - they give government so much power that even when the government turns against the people the people are unable to fight back and overthrow it. The sad thing about technology is the fact that when used for the wrong reasons it can empower such a government in unprecedented ways, so our fate for the next few hundreds of years might actually be living in a hi-tech Gulag.

About communism: Of course i dont forget about humanity last falses, I know that it didnt worked out in XX century, but look now - we got way to communicate with whole world, we can travel almost everywhere in one day. Technology changes a lot imo, and educated people arent easy to manipulate. Educated and well raised people makes that kind of society in XX(?)century possible (dont know which century, though).
The problem is educated society was supposed to make democracy work without flaws and it didn't work out even though democracy offers much more room for free thought when compared to more collectivist systems. The problem is some people seem to be inherently dumb while a lot of the others simply don't give a fuck and are concerned only about their immediate surroundings and well-being. I'm sorry, but Plato's city of philosophers is never going to be built - and even if it was, it'd be a nightmare.

     About democracy: Its not that good as you say. Lot of corruption in the governments caused by politicians greed makes this wheel going to crush. Also, world global debt is raising in great speed because of borrows - and countries can only borrow more money from banks, which will result in that situation in near future: bankers will have most of the money, people will not be able to buy anythings and we will start barter again. Good look with barter trade in our times... :sick:
Yeah, it most probably is going to crash just like ancient Rome and Greece crashed. Then we're going to have a lot of turmoil and shitty government systems until people rediscover the simple fact that being free and able to rise up to your whole potential was not that bad of an idea after all. Then we're going to enjoy a period of prosperity for some time until the system deteriorates to the point it's going to crash again. It seems this is how this world rolls.

     Oh, and i almost forgot to say: Ok, you can say that human history says: "we're always fighting and competing" but i think its wrong to say that this is human nature or nature of the mankind. Humanity is beyond instincts from when they aquired the knowledge how to make fire, and of course, we're part of the nature and instincts and feelings are the important part of every one of us (except sociopaths, thats about feelings :D), but who would not like to live in wealth? Like the guy in film said, we're under huge influence of the culture we're raising in. And there are a really lot of people on the world who are a good people and would like to help ones who didnt had the luck of born in wealth countries like we and i dont think they would mind spend the time on togheters work to make world better.
    Also, the first thing the guy in the film said is that it cant work till everyone is satisfied with the goods they got - otherwise we will be still fighting each other for goods.
That's basically impossible and the reason I believe it's just some dangerous ramblings of a slightly crazed old hippie.
« Last Edit: July 10, 2012, 04:14:43 pm by Nice_Boat »
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Re: Real Fallout or Paradise?
« Reply #10 on: July 11, 2012, 12:18:41 am »

I just want to address one point.

About competition. There's a difference in competing who's better, and competing for something like money.

When you compete who's better then you advance and make better to try to get ahead of your rival.

When you compete for money you'll try to kill your rival just to be the one to get the money.

In this example, I mostly mean competition in products and technology but it can apply to other things as well. It's capitalism that creates competition for money. Companies try to take out their competition by producing their product at a cheaper cost and making them in China instead of competing to have a better product.
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Nice_Boat

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Re: Real Fallout or Paradise?
« Reply #11 on: July 11, 2012, 11:09:09 am »

How is a cheaper product fulfilling the same function not a better product? From a consumer perspective it's friggin' awesome. The sad part is Western companies have to move their production to China to achieve lower prices (despite the shipping costs, mind you) because they can't do it in their home countries due to shitty taxation and laws. Besides most people wouldn't even bother to compete for abstract ideas like "who's better" and money is good because it makes taking part in the competition worthwhile. As far as killing and other kinds of foul play are concerned - well, that's what the state with its laws, police etc. is for.
Re: Real Fallout or Paradise?
« Reply #12 on: July 11, 2012, 07:38:18 pm »

Yeah, absolutely.

But wasn't the Cold War in a way about "who's better?" That's where we've seen the most advancement.

And about "killing." What about big companies killing smaller companies by making production cost cheaper by producing it in China? The other producers can't even compete with the low prices.
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Nice_Boat

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Re: Real Fallout or Paradise?
« Reply #13 on: July 12, 2012, 08:48:45 am »

Yeah, absolutely.

But wasn't the Cold War in a way about "who's better?" That's where we've seen the most advancement.

And about "killing." What about big companies killing smaller companies by making production cost cheaper by producing it in China? The other producers can't even compete with the low prices.
Well, the Cold War was all about "who can kill the other side better", so yeah. A fun fact is if shit went down and both sides launched NATO would "lose", as in have a larger part of its population killed. For all out war it was something like 82% for Russia and 90%+ for the US of A due to population distribution back in the 80ies. I think it's even more valid right now since Russia has basically all the weapons it used to have and the same population as Japan.

As far as competition in the Western market goes - well yeah, it's screwed. We've moved away from what used to make us great to such an extent that what you've said is right. I think it's sad.
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