Author Topic: Clothes and armor making - the beginning  (Read 23206 times)

Offline Luther Blissett

  • Moderator
Re: Clothes and armor making - the beginning
« Reply #15 on: April 29, 2012, 03:01:23 pm »
Enthusiasm shouldn't be undervalued though - it's what makes the difference between "I've got a few hours off work - I can either work on these 3D models or sit on my arse and watch television". It also generates momentum in a project as a whole. If one person completes some new work, it can inspire others to get involved again, and soon you've got a huge amount of progress in a small amount of time.

I'm not personally offended by the "ordering", and it is often common when working through language and cultural barriers and written text, but Lizard is right - be careful about telling people what to do, because it could upset or annoy people - especially those who've contributed a lot of work over the last couple of years (imagine if someone upset Karpov, and he said "screw you guys, you can finish these animations yourselves"). I'm sure we can all think of open source projects or mods that have stopped or failed because of arguments and in-fighting. We don't want this to happen here, and so far have kept a good and friendly working environment. On the other hand, as Lizard noted - you've got a lot of enthusiasm. Don't lose that, because that's the thing that'll help to keep me and others coming back and getting things done, and then making them better, and then making it awesome. Remember that your original "please look at my work" message was what reminded me to get back on with some of this stuff after a long month of "real life" work :)

Anyway, regarding getting the other character models working in game, this is going to be quite difficult, and possibly beyond my abilities. It may need Karpov to do these properly (I can work with his files, but they wouldn't be exportable the other way round). I can sort of put some provisional things in game, for example I tested a rig of the fat man a while ago, but he was using the male hero poses and animations. This would be the same for the weak / junkie / strong etc models. If there's any difference in size i.e. shoulder width, you'll get a distortion every time the model moves, unless we compensate for this by tweaking animations. Even then, these still wouldn't be the correct animations for the model (i.e. the "junkie shuffle", or the merchant "scared-wave-arms-in-the-air run") though they would be playable. I think I'm capable of producing provisional versions of the idle poses for these models, and I can possibly reinterpret some of the animations to rescale to the different postures as a temporary measure, but as said, the "proper movement" for these other characters is currently beyond me until I learn some more stuff.

What I am going to try and do is to produce a provisional rig and idle pose for these, so I can "projection paint" the existing sprites onto them. Given the "universal UV maps", this should mean that we will have templates of colour and shape for a large number of sprites, and that you'd be able to put the bluesuit on a weak model just as easily as putting a yellow junkie suit on a hero model.

This is connected to the hero model clothing question. We're currently trying to work something out regarding how best to do these (see last few pages of this thread). A problem is of course that you might draw a load of textures, which then have to be remade a few weeks later. If you're fine with this, then go ahead with it of course. Keep your original PSD files so they can be adjusted easily.

The key is trying to find a method to get this "look" right, without the drawbacks of using such garbled textures. Obviously there is a potential problem of having to redo a lot of textures depending on what we come up with. If we can generate the correct lighting and look through proper 3D lighting, specular and normal maps, then it should be much easier to do the rest of the textures, or to use the ones we've already got after a little tweaking.

I have a small plan involving calculating the existing engine lighting, and subtracting this from the "painted on" texture lighting, which might give us a suitable "shading overlay" for future textures (i.e. the light and dark is in one layer, you add colours from a particular palette and details as you see fit to a separate layer). It may take a few days of research to work this out though. An advantage of doing this would be that if we adjust / improve the engine lighting settings or normal maps somehow, it's only this overlay which needs adjusting. If original layered PSD files are kept for textures, then they can be updated quickly in future. It's difficult to explain, because I only half understand what I'm trying to explain - it'll make more sense after I've actually tested it :P

Offline NastyKhan

  • One man army: Graphic, music and game designer.
Re: Clothes and armor making - the beginning
« Reply #16 on: April 29, 2012, 09:31:17 pm »
Ok ok.. Just wanted to boost you morale guys.. No offense. *sigh*

You may also click HERE to see my 3d items and weapons.

~ Sorry for any language bugs. Doing my best.

Offline Luther Blissett

  • Moderator
Re: Clothes and armor making - the beginning
« Reply #17 on: April 29, 2012, 09:41:39 pm »
Totally - and you have. Don't think you're getting "told off" :)

Offline NastyKhan

  • One man army: Graphic, music and game designer.
Re: Clothes and armor making - the beginning
« Reply #18 on: April 29, 2012, 09:46:30 pm »
So what you propose me to do?

You may also click HERE to see my 3d items and weapons.

~ Sorry for any language bugs. Doing my best.

Offline Luther Blissett

  • Moderator
Re: Clothes and armor making - the beginning
« Reply #19 on: April 29, 2012, 10:51:19 pm »
Well, there's plenty to be done. You've mentioned some of it yourself already. Of course, a lot of it is "whatever you can spot that needs doing, that you feel capable of doing and feel like actually doing". It's voluntary. Don't work on anything you hate, unless everyone hates doing it and you're feeling heroic.

If possible, it'd be really useful for me if you could carry on through to the rigging tutorial and see if you can make sense of it all, spot some errors or give some feedback. Lots of things need rigging, and some of the rigging can actually be very simple. It's also unlikely to need changing in future, though can be very quickly adjusted and re-exported if necessary.

Other things that may need doing :
Experiment with a few armour models - the "desert nomad" one is up up for grabs if you want to try that - I'm not going to finish it any time soon. There's a few concept art shots here and here. Also, have a look through the general NEW armors/clothes suggestions thread. If there's anything which is generally agreed as a good idea by discussion, it should probably be done. If there's anything which has been "yessed" by Solar or Lexx or another dev, then that should almost definitely be done. Try rigging them if you're feeling confident. If it doesn't work, don't worry about it.

Bear in mind you can try some really simple stuff, like this little test I did the other night :

That's just a little shoulder pad and a strap, like in some of the screen splashes. It's not very good - I was just testing the combination of model against "sprite texture" to see what it did. I think a non-shit version of the same thing would be pretty nice though.

Slightly easier modelling and rigging tasks may be a few more basic hairstyles, hats and face stuff for variety. Hairstyles definitely need looking at. Longer hair will need partial rigging to the "ponytail bones", but short static hair will rig exactly the same as the hat in the tutorial. Big afro hair, mohawks in different colours, weird tribal hair with bones through it. Perhaps a "rambo-style" headband, a handkerchief-as-a-facemask etc. I think there's a lot of free reign for imagination with these. Basically, we've got the basic man / woman hero haircuts only. The wasteland needs a barber.

We are also in dire need of beards.

Lizard's given you the base t-pose models as obj for the different body types on there - though we can't test them in game easily yet, you can still work on some stuff there. At the very least, it might be worth putting your test texture on these, so you can understand the subtle differences in them. Some of the fatter characters might need a slightly different texture on them - you might have to adjust the curves on the sash, reposition things a little - but they should mostly translate pretty well. Once you get a little understanding of those shapes and how the texture wraps around the different models, you'll be able to help a lot in the near future. Once we work out what / how to do the textures in the best way possible, we can hopefully start "mass producing" them.

It's probably worth making a few more practice textures - even if they're not to be used in game, it'll be very advantageous to learning. Try a few things out, experiment with the "specular layer" and see what happens when you change it. You'll probably find you suddenly know a lot :)

There's a few other bits which need doing - if you look at the first post in the tutorial thread, there's a "how you can help" bit. That stuff mostly still applies.

Also, do not underestimate the value of just reading, looking at stuff and giving feedback on what other people are doing. Generally though, I must admit we are slightly lacking an "overall plan" at the moment as in "what to do next". I keep half-finishing things and wandering off and messing with other stuff all the time, and I know that there's some things that need finishing to let other things happen. Maybe look at my recent posts from the last 3 months, look at every instance where I've said "I might try this" or "I will try and do that soon", then tell me what those things are :D

Sometimes it's genuinely hard for me to tell which thing needs doing next. I'm tempted to shitly rig the other character models into a vague idle pose and churn out a full set of the "projection map" sprite textures, so we've got a coherent guideline to work from. However we end up doing the textures, I think they'd be useful reference materials. However, perhaps it would be more useful for everyone if I actually DID manage to finish that extra rigging tutorial, or typed up some reference stuff about Karpov's recent object / model linking works and where all the files are stored?

Offline NastyKhan

  • One man army: Graphic, music and game designer.
Re: Clothes and armor making - the beginning
« Reply #20 on: April 30, 2012, 09:07:40 pm »
1. Kill me but i can't find any rigging tutorial. Just the "The very, very short guide to basic skeleton rigging".
2. I got the model pack. It's perfect, just what i was looking for :) Could i ask you however to name them? I mean - i can recognize mutie or dwarf.. but the rest might me a problem ;)
3. I was thinking about focusing on hairstyles, clothes (texture) and clothes (models). How bout that?

Thanks :)

You may also click HERE to see my 3d items and weapons.

~ Sorry for any language bugs. Doing my best.

Offline Luther Blissett

  • Moderator
Re: Clothes and armor making - the beginning
« Reply #21 on: May 01, 2012, 02:33:48 am »
The other tutorials are further through the thread. I should link them all properly from the first post, shouldn't I? :)
Anyway, I'll link them all here for now.

Lizard's Blender rigging
Part One
Part Two
Even if you're going to use Fragmotion etc how I've explained later, you should read these first. They're really clear, easy to understand and should help you make sense of what I've tried to write later on.

Tommy's notes
Part one
Part Two
I wrote lots of messages to Tommy whilst he was learning some of the modelling / texturing things. He's compiled them into a helpful list of things with diagrams

My rigging stuff
Part One
Part Two
Part Three
Should take you from model to rig to game.

Jotisz's texture mapping
Part One
A good little tutorial on producing UV maps in Blender.

Karpov's specular maps
Part One
A bit of notepad magic and explanation on how to implement a specular map (shiny map) onto the models.

For the models, the names are mixed between the "codes" that experienced modders will recognise (i.e. NM_BRLP) and words. I've downloaded the same file. From left to right, we should have :
1) Child
2) Dwarf
3) Yellow top and grey trousers farmer / peasant and any others of this posture
4) Mordino guard
5) Ghoul
6) Loser
7) Man in tuxedo and others of this posture (i.e. NCR "stickman" police")
8) Old man
9) Fat man
10) Strong body type (boxer and mobster)
11) Hero
12) Supermutant
13) Default female

Hopefully that all makes sense :)

Hair and clothing models definitely - clothing textures, if you can wait a couple of days I'm going to try and "projection paint" everything from the sprites - then there'll be a really clear framework to work from :)

[edit] Also, beards.
« Last Edit: May 01, 2012, 05:48:51 am by Luther Blissett »

Offline NastyKhan

  • One man army: Graphic, music and game designer.
Re: Clothes and armor making - the beginning
« Reply #22 on: May 01, 2012, 12:06:23 pm »
Thanks.

You always write so much? :P

You may also click HERE to see my 3d items and weapons.

~ Sorry for any language bugs. Doing my best.

Offline Luther Blissett

  • Moderator
Re: Clothes and armor making - the beginning
« Reply #23 on: May 01, 2012, 03:42:36 pm »
Hahaha. Not always, but it does seem to happen quite a lot. I'll try a shorter version.

Alternative response to previous question :
1) Same thread, lower down.
2) (l-r) Kid, dwarf, peasant, guard, ghoul, junkie, tux, old, fat, strong, hero, mutie, woman.
3) Yep, not yet, yep.

:D

Offline NastyKhan

  • One man army: Graphic, music and game designer.
Re: Clothes and armor making - the beginning
« Reply #24 on: May 01, 2012, 05:54:55 pm »
Hmm.. I saw some tutorials about parenting and creating bones in Blender before. I also tried it myself, with success. Is it possible to do the whole "rigging work" in blender and gimp? I'd like to avoid installing any further programs.

You may also click HERE to see my 3d items and weapons.

~ Sorry for any language bugs. Doing my best.

Offline Luther Blissett

  • Moderator
Re: Clothes and armor making - the beginning
« Reply #25 on: May 01, 2012, 07:10:24 pm »
Not currently, no. Two problems are 1) We can't get the original skeleton fully working in blender, and 2) We can't get blender to export a fully working x file which is compatible with the game. When I say "can't", I mean "can't yet". Hopefully it will be possible in future. Feel free to try / test these things yourself and see if you have better results than last time we tried.

Gimp is fine in place of Photoshop of course.


Offline NastyKhan

  • One man army: Graphic, music and game designer.
Re: Clothes and armor making - the beginning
« Reply #26 on: May 01, 2012, 07:31:30 pm »
Ok, i made this: http://screenshooter.net/0805776/febtrkb
http://screenshooter.net/0805776/njtooqg
Clothes is texture only, while bandanna is a model + texture.
« Last Edit: May 01, 2012, 07:50:44 pm by NastyKhan »

You may also click HERE to see my 3d items and weapons.

~ Sorry for any language bugs. Doing my best.

Offline Luther Blissett

  • Moderator
Re: Clothes and armor making - the beginning
« Reply #27 on: May 01, 2012, 09:14:22 pm »
Looking very promising. Good work.

Offline NastyKhan

  • One man army: Graphic, music and game designer.
Re: Clothes and armor making - the beginning
« Reply #28 on: May 01, 2012, 09:32:01 pm »
Thanks. I think about handing it to somebody else (to rig) and continue doing next clothes set.

If so, then:
1. Who should i give it to?
2. How should i do it? Deleting everything but dwarf and bandanna and then exporting as OBJ will do the job? And what about texture? Should it include white human skin? Or have an alpha transparency in place of human skin?

You may also click HERE to see my 3d items and weapons.

~ Sorry for any language bugs. Doing my best.

Offline Luther Blissett

  • Moderator
Re: Clothes and armor making - the beginning
« Reply #29 on: May 01, 2012, 10:22:03 pm »
1. Not sure yet. I'd suggest to upload the files to a file hosting service, then put the link on here. That way it'll go to whoever needs it whenever they need it.
2. If possible, try and centralise the character (leave the feet at ground level, but put him at 0,0 for the other axes). Then export an obj containing just the dwarf and the hat. Use the full textures with skin and everything for now, as a .png or similar. Keep your source texture files in layers so they can be altered in future.