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[Solar]

Sigh, I can see this was a waste of time.

It would take me infinitely longer to explain why what you are saying completely misses the point than it would to think it all up myself and ask players I know can provide decent feedback individually.

The idea behind the different events is to give some other tactical problems besides where to stand around in a town. So TC isn't doomed to be an endless repetition of the same thing.

The examples there are an illustration of the concept, as that post is the concept post(!), rather than things which will actually work - pointing that out is totally useless.

I'll give this until the morning, if it doesn't become constructive then this experiment will be declared a failure.

[John Porno]

The idea behind the different events is to give some other tactical problems besides where to stand around in a town. So TC isn't doomed to be an endless repetition of the same thing.

if you had any tc experience you could tell that tc battles rarely are the same thing.

[T-888]

The idea behind the different events is to give some other tactical problems besides where to stand around in a town. So TC isn't doomed to be an endless repetition of the same thing.

I get what your trying to achieve , even if you implemented such " objectives " we wouldn't see it that way as some problem but just plain useless , not needed etc. etc. as John said.

you have the usual fight and noone cares if any caravans or cows get caught in the crossfire.

By the way we have to solve other much complicated tactical problems than guarding cows , repairing generators or fighting random npc's spawned in a city , like the position of enemy faction when attacking , now that can be a problem so at least something good was done this wipe , no TC zone witch adds more variety ( Still need to cut off some corners and it's perfect , maybe even some buildings ). Again as john said barely the same thing.

I'll give this until the morning, if it doesn't become constructive then this experiment will be declared a failure.

You can always try to improve this system it wouldn't take as much time as well could prove much more efficient to do so , rascals post is just a concept of .... no not a concept precise things for TC to be enjoyable at the moment. Rascals promote system is sum of many player consensus , concepts that many people have agreed on , not only in our TS but here on forum too. It just contains the most basic stuff that needs to be fixed now , limit on influence , no merc militia , less militia , reworked speed of influence decrease/gain etc. etc. This is what players on forum were asking for and for a damn good reason.

[Killy]

Solar i like it all and I would play this game again if it was implemented,
tbh first of all u supposed to focus on fixin more important matters like trade, and crafting system, balancing guns and armors, making game easier for loners and new players ( and i really mean it, im not a noob. Ive played as a loner again and its a pain in the ass(worse than ever), I dont see any new player keep playing this game for more than 1 day), and to do the things u want to do(new TC) u need a bigger player pool, so go back to basics. Crafting simple guns and ammo supposed to be easier. It took me 2h to craft one 10 mm pistol that i lost in 5 min srsly who is gonna play a game like that ?

(i know trolls are gonna say u are doing it wrong, u need a power alt gather fruits craft a flamer gather stuff, get another alt tag repair science lvl it up with flamer etc, in 50 hours u can have ur first sniper alt)
WTF this is what this game became ..
crafting simple armors shotguns pistols supposed to be easy 1 metal parts + 1 junk thats it, simple ammo the same, 2 gundpowder no more for 100 bullets, on the other side u can focus on balancing power builds and high tier armors, weapons. Lower the ammount of better ore and minerals and so on.


its like a pyramid scheme u think about the very top for the few ( most of them dont like it anyway )
while there is nothing to support the bottom

[Catoptromancy]

Instead of doing everything all at once. Do it in steps. Cap influence should have happened weeks ago. Start with tweaks(capping influence), instead of letting this go on for so long. Once fixes are added one by one, then other things will become more obvious.

TC should not be a quest, all the brahmin and other stuff could be optional when town is quiet and people are bored. Maybe whoever does the quest gets some loot, and faction holding the town also gets some loot. These quests should not affect influence.


Something else I may add, I like to rp sometimes and hang out in northern towns. The old system allowed this. PVP to take town or defend, then relog to rp char and mess around. With influence the entire time someone is in town is considered tc time, cant relax and cant relog to rp.

Influence forces enemy sneakers to kill afks, need to constantly be on guard. Last season, people only sneakburst around to randomly kill people for fun instead of for TC objective. Any TC objective that involves presence will just keep up the afk/sneak burster game. Need to worry about every single bluesuit because they are likely to have a bomb and lie about their reason for being in town.

[ErnestGaskin]

Sigh, I can see this was a waste of time.

Do not let this get you down. I still believe influence is a beautiful concept that just still needs a lot of work. You are a developer, you should be used to people complaining and trying to press their interests.
TC used to be a great source of income for the strongest, and those people (noticably from a single gang) just refuse to let it go. When you guys nerfed stealing from NPC factions, were you worried about thieves complaining?

For starters, questing for influence is a beautiful concept, though it should not really replace the current system, more like add to it - benefits for the winners, penalties for the losers; while keeping the influence as it is intact; as i said many times before, this system is great, dragged down only by people not being able to grasping the concept. When i said that the only bug this system has is Rogues, i wasnt just trolling. The fact is, once they are unable to keep this up (which is the reason for all this grief), it will become unleashed and should be working as it was supposed to.
It just takes a little time, thats it.

Call it unnatural selection.


1) influ quests

Now, with that being said, imagine influ quests not giving set value of influence, but percentage of current one (in both benefits and penalties) for the gang that starts the event, directly influencing its difficulity - for example,

Gang A starting raiders event on influ 300 spawns 30 raiders, giving the winning faction 30 influ points, -30 to the one that looses, handout is distributed accordingly.
Gang B starting the same event on influ 20 spawns 2 raiders, giving winners 2 influ... well, you get it.

Now what this should do is to encourage participating on whatever influ for both sides, making it more difficult for the leading faction to sustain the city, giving insane boosts and loot to even absolutely new competitors, yet still keeping the original concept of the "city caretakers", if i may.
Decreasing influ as a penalty should equalize gaps before factions and keep the influ from reaching ungodly levels.


2) Influ gain
Pretty much stated above.

(Though it would be nice to see it not stopping at pure once-a-day events, getting tiny influ + and - by little thigs, either quests done by faction members in the city, sum of members rep there {which would cover not only any indecent behavior, but also trading rep gains, FA/Doc on npcs and so on}
- gang member does this and that for the city, gets xp for the quest, reward AND his gang gets 0,00005 influ.)

3) militia

In my opinion, adding merc militia should not be cancelled. Getting a good merc militia means a lot of hard work, including caps and gear. Now with in which rate they are slaughtered (and will be after it means gaining influ) its just one of the insane things. If anyone wants to work that hard for something, let him have it. It will be gone, eventually. Another case of unnatural selection. Muties walking the streets are just a result of some gangs getting too much too easy. Working on this concept, it _will_ fix itself soon.

Same goes for militia numbers. If the 20 militiants are spread across the city, they still are not enough. (and spreading them is what this system actually needs), and i am not talking bonehead pvp not enough; im talking secure city not enough. Again, this should just be again achieved with another hard work. Starting the town at 10 militias, unlocking additional "special" quests - lets say - every 10th consequent won event. New dialogue at metzgers/sheriffs/whatevers opens up, where you can tell him you desperately need more guards, he tells you more people are actually willing to join in, as far as you provide capacities/enough food supplies for them.
 For example,
 Gang A (the fellas with 300 influ) won 10 consequent events, now there is an option to bring 500 iguanas, 500 nukas and blah blah blah, that opens aditional 5 militia spots. After another 10 won events, boss tells you that they dont have where to stay, but there is an abandoned gasstation/water purification plant/blahblah just outside of the city, that only needs to be cleared out of muties...
 Now, opening these slots, having 20 militias in town, you could still continue getting more spots for reinforcements (much like protected cities have). This makes a good ground for long time rp town control.
 If influ drops too low, or the gang looses 10 cons, those slots will be gone again.

 In a nutshell, more hard work, better set-up city, harder to defend. Thats something pvp apes can do too.

 Of course, we are talking player-run justice here, that WOULD be hard concept and WOULD include tons of controversials, like KoS lists and so.

Conclusion

 Truth be told, i feel bad for you guys getting so much s*it for something so good, seeing it not working and more. I do believe this concept is one of the best this server ever seen, and would deserve more understanding. As i stated many times before, we all know reasons for this system not working, and if we think hard about this we know that its just something that time will fix.
 Im not going again into earning tc rewards by keeping the city prosper, as it seems that its out of the question. But seeing that another ways are considered that would put this system further towards hard work for players is just awesome.

 What we see now is (some gang) not being able to keep up on all fronts and all approaches by newly rising competition. This will make bigger and bigger difference, until we will see warzones in 1-2 cities, where it stops. Now, this will come with time, this is no astrology, this is a way of progress. With more work required by the players, cities will be able to be divided between factions and provide variety much faster.

 Keep up the good work,
 your only fan.

[JovankaB]

Why not split TC towns into 3 categories with different rules (which would influence how fast you can take town, how many people you need and what to do to trigger "control" and how behave to keep it easier and get benefits from it):

- "total anarchy" (Modoc, Klamath)  - pure PvP TC, no militia, very little rules and simple to take part even by small gangs, raids at nights etc

- "more regulated TC" (Gecko, Den) pure PvP TC but with militia and more ways to control town, benefits for simple PKing/holding town longer but not much else, rules suitable for medium groups

- "roleplay TC" (Redding, Broken Hills) PvP with many features/mechanics that highly encourages playing in similar style to past "roleplay town" projects... many profits for gangs who don't just pew pew newcomers etc, most suitable for big gangs/organized alliances and not easy to take over with quick raids unless gang is only pking there

just a general idea, I leave details about rules to experts...

[Tomowolf]

Why not split TC towns into 3 categories with different rules (which would influence how fast you can take town, how many people you need and what to do to trigger "control" and how behave to keep it easier and get benefits from it):

- "total anarchy" (Modoc, Klamath)  - pure PvP TC, no militia, very little rules and simple to take part even by small gangs, raids at nights etc

- "more regulated TC" (Gecko, Den) pure PvP TC but with militia and more ways to control town, benefits for simple PKing/holding town longer but not much else, rules suitable for medium groups

- "roleplay TC" (Redding, Broken Hills) PvP with many features/mechanics that highly encourages playing in similar style to past "roleplay town" projects... many profits for gangs who don't just pew pew newcomers etc, most suitable for big gangs/organized alliances and not easy to take over with quick raids unless gang is only pking there

just a general idea, I leave details about rules to experts...

Finally someone get that it shouldn't be pain in ass rules, but fun for everyone, for those bigger and smaller gangs, dawg.
I was writing somewhere in notepad adding something to TC but I lost it , but there is scratch(very little one :S) - enable domination system, which would work somehow with those influence points in some way.

[avv]

Current system can be improved. The most important thing is that gang must be rewarded from presence, not being on worldmap.

Those scenarios mentioned in first post could be done by random players visiting the town. So it'd be like this: gang comes in, caps the town with 15 min timer, gets some minor loot. Now the town is theirs but the locker doesn't generate anything on its own. You got to do stuff inside the town or have someone else do it. You don't have to be inside as long as someone does those scenarios.
This system is blamed to encourage afking in towns. In previous session you could afk on worldmap and still get rewards.

[Kilgore]

This needs to have all the details ironed out ahead of time, because (unsurprisingly) people are starting to get sick of remaking this

Then why don't you stop remaking it?

- Take previous TC rules.
- Get rid of glitches (no merc adding to the militia, militia limited to max . 8, no gauss militia, balanced rewards). Things that were annoying were already explained by players in prewipe thread about TC started by Ghosthack, pretty clearly.
-
- Profit?

If you want to come up with absolutely new TC system, it's likely to fail the more complicated it gets. That's why I don't understand why you don't just improve TC system that was tested in all possible ways already.

[T-888]

If you want to come up with absolutely new TC system, it's likely to fail the more complicated it gets. That's why I don't understand why you don't just improve TC system that was tested in all possible ways already.

Damage has been done as influence already implemented somehow , although i agree it would not be a bad idea to just take previous TC and perfect it step by step.

Instead of doing everything all at once. Do it in steps. Cap influence should have happened weeks ago. Start with tweaks(capping influence), instead of letting this go on for so long. Once fixes are added one by one, then other things will become more obvious.

This.

[John Porno]

If you want to come up with absolutely new TC system, it's likely to fail the more complicated it gets. That's why I don't understand why you don't just improve TC system that was tested in all possible ways already.

I'd like to have an answer for that one as well.

Also, why did you even come up with a tc system that is so exploitable? Did you really not think of hotel room overnight proxying? or was it part of the plan?

As others said, the influence system can be implemented to get optional rewards out of a town, maybe to get some extra militia (5 on top of 10) and some extra ammo in the chest but that's it. For the actual capping, a 15 minute timer just works best.

Bottom line I rather have a working mitsubishi than a broken porsche.

[avv]

Looks like everyone can agree on influence cap, tc timer, less militia and influence gain areas (buildings, hotel rooms).

In my opinion militia shouldn't participate in gang vs gang situations at all. Don't let npcs mess with player to player bussiness. Could even be that once a gang starts the timer, militia simply walks away and comes back once someone has the town.

[kttdestroyer]

Well, i will try to be constructive, hope my opinion helps a bit Here is my two cents:

Influence

* A limit, maybe at around 500 or something would be good idea, at least from standing in town, i suggest that it could go above that, but by diffrent gains, like i will write more about few lines under this.
* If gang A is gaining, all other gangs should be loosing a bit more.
* Friendly gangs (mutually added to terminal) should support the highest influental faction, exemple: TSAR helps hawks in Gecko, Hawks have more influence in Gecko then TSAR, Hawks should gain influence and TSAR not (maybe even count as Hawks in that situation), in Den, when Hawks come to support TSAR, and as TSAR have more influence then hawks in Den, TSAR should get influence and Hawks not (becouse they are mutually friendly set at terminal).
* Quests might be intresting, however, just so they dont get repetive!
* I think influence should be gained from a lot small aspects, each limited to small amount of maximal gain AND the acual gain delayed with 1 day or 2, to avoid abusing and make it a far-sighted strategy (it feels reasonable also from rp perspective, i mean, it takes time to gain peoples trust ). I will expend this one and give few exemples:
 - Random players doing quests in town, gives +1 each with a limit per person for one quest per 1 to 10 hours (random amount), maximum influence gained from all random people making quests could be 10.
 - Amount of mined resources and obtained resources in all kinds in town, 100 ore mined by a player would give 1 influence point, same player would be limited to 1 influence point per 1 to 10 hours (random amount), maximum could be also 10 per 10-24 hours.
 - Trading, not sure how it works and what numbers you guys have to play with, but i suppose there is some value of trade, i suggest something simillar with trade to above with low maximum gain aswell.
 - Specific things in towns, like slave trading, also could be in play.
 - Amount of words said inside town by non-faction controlled player, limited to max gain 5.
 - Highest amount of non controlling faction players in a town, with limit for max gain as 10.
 - Average amount of non-controlling-faction players in town per 24 hours, with limit of max 10 gain per this 10-24 ofc.
 - Amount of dead non-controlling-faction players in town per 24 hours, limit for individual player 1 per 10-24 hours, and limit for max 5 negative influence points per 24 hours.
 - Items crafted aswell. Same way.

My idea is this scheme, of first maximum gain of each happening per character, and a global limit for all characters within the happening, the acual gain affect delayed by 24-36 hours. The idea synopsis is That a sum of statistics that will show that the faction is treating the town well and acually makes it grow in player intrest should be rewarded with influence.


Militia

Well, i wouldint touch it atm, they are still dumb, and the militia settings doesint seem to work. I think that needs fixing first, making them a little smarter before you weaken them.

NPCs like beckys guards are really annoying through... They are really dumb.

Otherwise i am supriced so many people have to say something about militia, becouse we just killed militia 2 or 3 times since the wipe personally... Its mostly unnecessery procedure in current state.


TC Generally

I agree with points that there could be diffrent TC in diffrent places. But i wouldint turn towns into pvp madness. It should be wars between towns (like between us vs SoT in Den, or Hawks vs SoT in Gecko, or BHH vs SoT in BH) not small fights that last 15 minutes. I suggest to give this small fight opportunity in other places, like maripossa, or maybe turn Reno(?) into 4 capture the flag zones (mordino, slavadores etc) also with income from some box as a candy (or banana like Wichura would say?). Necropolis? Warehouse? Ares Silo? Could give something uniqe maybe with old TC timer or some other pvp mode, dunno, an idea.


My Review of this one month

This influence system can give some very enjoyable battles, that last a lot longer then last session. I have two exemples of great fights i been participating in, one was in Klamath when we camped trapper ruins north, we were loosing one after another, in the end (after like 1 hour) we were only 5 left trying to make a stand, it was really fun. Another one was not as far as yersterday night, when Hawks came to aid us in Den, we faught heavy fights against SoTs until 3 am, both sides had heavy losses at moments, if you ask me it was very entertaining!

the fonline 2238 community does not want rp-tc. No matter what kind of stuff would be introduced, it would always boil down to 2 people doing the clicking while everyone else is youtubing until the enemy arrives. And then you have the usual fight and noone cares if any caravans or cows get caught in the crossfire.

"Everybody thinks like me!" 

[Jotisz]

I especially like the idea of giving quests for Town control the opening was good one I would welcome something like that.
Also kttdestroyer's post seems interesting too.
The idea to make different TC zones where is no need for else just PvP I think is good too but I would rather see an extra area for these like Ares Silo, Vault Vilage (from the restoration project), or some noname area.

One thing that disturbed me about milita was that they rarely fit the area. They probably get less usefull this way but I would love to see them made from locals like at Gecko ghouls at Den slavers at Brokken hills unity patrol at Redding miners, something that fits there. It would disballance the cities a bit but maybe give different number for towns like 1 squad for Brokken hills 2 for Redding 3 for Den and Gecko. 1 squad should 6-8.