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[Swag]

Proxies don't relog. They wait on worldmap in another window.

Well that's just against the rules... never used/wanted to use proxies to dual log, that's why I thought at first you meant relogging to a mule character... it's pretty sad that people actually resort to this honestly, it's a pretty lame form of breaking or at least bending the rules.

I think the cw thing is balanced as it is... I mean you might as well give more skill points and hp too and let 1CH characters have followers. I think as far as SPECIAL goes it's pretty well-balanced the way it has been

[Jackall]

Idea is cool, happens just too many times this situation:

You win a fight and get attacked while looting.

For some reasons enemy can keep everyone in gear while some "unknown bluesuits" spawn and take the loot.

The fact that a thing is "against da rulez" won't stop cheaters. So, every actions that can discourage proxy usage and alting should be really taken into account.

[Jotisz]

If you don't care what the gameplay is like, why are you telling what it should be?

I care for gameplay, I don't care about dual loggers and proxy users since I can't do anything about it why should I brother then. Instead of having fun should I go crying that people dual log ban them? Personally I think it wouldn't work those who cheat they wouldn't stop.

[avv]

I think the cw thing is balanced as it is... I mean you might as well give more skill points and hp too and let 1CH characters have followers. I think as far as SPECIAL goes it's pretty well-balanced the way it has been.

You can't call anything that can be bypassed somehow balanced. A sniper - tank tradeoff is balanced because you can't be both at the same time. Hauler - fighter isn't balanced because you don't use the abilities in same situations thus allowing the use of alts.
Balance is based on tradeoffs, choices and consequences. You can remove the tradeoffs of low cw with alts so where's the balance?
Why cw is differend from charisma is that charisma isn't necessary for everyone. Carryweight is pretty damn necessary for everyone so that's why I'm saying it should be generally increased. 

I care for gameplay, I don't care about dual loggers and proxy users since I can't do anything about it why should I brother then. Instead of having fun should I go crying that people dual log ban them? Personally I think it wouldn't work those who cheat they wouldn't stop.

But proxy has pretty high impact on gameplay because it rewards cheating. That's why it'd be best for the game to fabricate features that either don't support it or make using it pointless. If players could carry more, looter proxy wouldn't be that useful and cheaters wouldn't benefit anymore on this area.

[Swag]

You can't call anything that can be bypassed somehow balanced. A sniper - tank tradeoff is balanced because you can't be both at the same time. Hauler - fighter isn't balanced because you don't use the abilities in same situations thus allowing the use of alts.
Balance is based on tradeoffs, choices and consequences. You can remove the tradeoffs of low cw with alts so where's the balance?
Why cw is differend from charisma is that charisma isn't necessary for everyone. Carryweight is pretty damn necessary for everyone so that's why I'm saying it should be generally increased. 

But proxy has pretty high impact on gameplay because it rewards cheating. That's why it'd be best for the game to fabricate features that either don't support it or make using it pointless. If players could carry more, looter proxy wouldn't be that useful and cheaters wouldn't benefit anymore on this area.

I agree with this assessment completely avv. There's no reason to reward cheaters. I'm not a huge fan of needing to have alts either for that matter... but my only concern is that if we increase carry weight for everyone to a decent level then there is no point to a Strength stat at all. Or very little point as Weapon Handling is available to circumvent ST requirements of weapons and with increased carry weight that would be all that matters. I agree with your thoughts on the matter, I just don't think it can really be executed well and keep the game somewhat balanced. I think this would unbalance builds somewhat since you could just take weapon handling on every build and pump the extra SPECIAL points into Endurance or whatever. I agree about the proxies; I'm looking at things from a build standpoint.

[Crazy]

I think this would unbalance builds somewhat since you could just take weapon handling on every build and pump the extra SPECIAL points into Endurance or whatever.

Huh, that's already what's happening... And you kinda forget it still use a perk slot...

[Izual]

Unless I misread first post, this is absolutely not about a closed beta report. Proper place seems to be in suggestions subforum; let's keep the CBT one a bit clean to keep it useful.

[T-888]

However carrying stuff is something every char should be able to do since the gameplay is pretty much centered abound stuff. If you take a look at any game where carryweight exists, even the least carry-able chars can always carry enough to make basic gameplay possible.

I can't argue about this.

Maybe move Pack Rat and Strong Back to Support Perks? !

I don't see a reason how this wouldn't work but i could add something for it to be a more efficient solution. The problem is if the requirements are wrong as they are now it won't provide utility for most of the characters to fully or at least partially take action in the most basic activities like gathering resources. It doesn't make sense to me that the strong back perks have high requirements for STR , usable only by characters that already have enough carry weight for pretty much all the basic things to do and if they take it they become " universal mules " as we know - looters.

Move Strong back to support perks attainable by characters that have specials lets say only if less or , and equal than 4 STR , that should do the trick fine.

[RavenousRat]

Offtop:

A sniper - tank tradeoff is balanced because you can't be both at the same time.

A cocktail of drugs from nuka, cigs, psycho and buffout.
Of course you can do only 1 shot per once, and you need to regenerate all APs to do it again. And you'll have only 75% to hit chance in the eyes on 50th hex to 10 AG + BA guy what isn't good. But he is a sniper and tank! Under psycho +x1 toughness and BA, he'll have 10 DT and 60% DR. His high FoV for tank allows him to umm.. tank other tanks faster by imba knock outs and downs and bypasses from 50 hexes so they won't even see him!
You can make 8 LK and 2 ST, then you will have exact 95% to hit in the eyes on 50th hex.
Btw he has carry weight!!1

About carry weight: you already said in 1st post that ST is useless except for carry weight, so.. you want to make it useless at all? Let's remove that stat with CH, make PEIAL, because everyone picks 1 CH anyway except for merc leaders, so let everyone have fixed number of mercs and able to taxi each other, also fixed carry weight for everyone and no ST check penalty and remove ST requirements for weapon at all. I think EN gives too much already by giving you HP, it would be good if ST affected rolls against at least weapon drops and cripples. 1 ST would automatically fail all rolls, so each time someone crits you in hand or leg you'll drop your weapon and cripple limb and 10 ST should give you almost immunity to these. Then weapon handling perk won't be so overpowered. As for small frame, it was said long time ago that it's just +1 SPECIAL, probably they want to leave it as it is, small frame can work something like Jet partly, giving you +1 AP but decreasing DR or work like better criticals but opposite, giving to your enemy +to crit roll against you, then small frame will be avoided by everyone but snipers.
Also when you say there's no trade off, because you can relog/use proxy of your 10 ST pack rat alt, it's already a trade off! You need to use proxy or relog!

However when you need to do anything else but fight, carryweight becomes very important.

Raise your ST or don't take imba Small frame trait.

Yes, it's stupid, it's like:
"I can't sell my guns because barter timer goes so fast! Or I want to buy some guns, but damned Sha Enin has 23942348723 radios and I can't scroll to it and don't know about filter and timer runs out faster!"
"Raise your barter skill."
Will someone raise his barter skill? Of course not! They aren't idiots, they better suffer from it and try again and again and adapt to it. The same with repair skill, science skill, outdoorsman skill, CH requirements, crafting. It works in single player, but it doesn't work in multiplayer, but we still have it and we have a lot alts and we'll have. Dual loggers, triple loggers, quadro loggers, talking to your own alts in front of GMs, FOnline forces you to do that, if you want to remove that, then removing carry weight (or making it good even with 1 ST, but its the same as removing it) is just one of these things and it won't remove amount of alts, you also need to suggest to remove crafting requirements, change outdoorsman skill, change repair and dismantling, change barter, change quests, etc.

[Swag]

RavenousRat, I could quote the whole thing but I won't... thank you though...

Izual you're right this has pretty much nothing to do with CBT and I apologize for posting here. I had to post because this idea is kind of outlandish to me... my question to avv is basically "Ok you can mine with a PvP character... what next?"

I'll answer... "Well I'll relog to my crafter and make what I need..."

So I ask, why not just do that with the crafter?

I agree with you avv that proxies and alts kind of ruin the game... Izual, you are totally correct... this is not a CBT problem, this is a "general" problem. And I think the majority of the playerbase will agree that it isn't a problem. avv, if people are exploiting and using proxies this is on another level altogether, from what I am hearing it's common practice, which is just wrong... I mean we want this game to work (at least I do), so what benefit is there in cheating?

I mean come on... the staff is giving you a free game, please don't abuse it... if it's done right it is an awesome game for sure.

Mod: Please move this topic out of this forum because it is in no way related to the CBT

And I'm sorry for writing a novel

[Swag]

Thank you for moving this Izual!

[Slaver Snipe]

I believe it was said somewhere that the upcoming wipe will allow everybody to have a follower or two, if so bring a slave/brahmin with you voila pack mule.

[avv]

Also when you say there's no trade off, because you can relog/use proxy of your 10 ST pack rat alt, it's already a trade off! You need to use proxy or relog!

Hardly a tradeoff. Tradeoff is something you can feel while gaming, for example a situation where you could burst with a rifle but it's not a good idea because you took finesse. So the tradeoff can be felt right there, it's unavoidable. But if you're logged off, planning to go mining, farming, chopping wood or carrying around anything heavy in peaceful enviroment you're free of any tradeoffs since you can freely pick the most suitable character for the job. It doesn't matter how you bypass the tradeoff, only what matters is that you do.
You go on about that if cw is free for all, then everything else should be aswell. I don't think so because one char doesn't have to be able to craft everything and be able to perform every support task. But carryweight is needed to perform most support tasks because support tasks very often have to do with carrying items around. So carryweight is kind of everyman's right, like running.
What comes to strength, it hardly gets any more unwanted than now if cw is generally increased. It's already something that's best left quite low. It's because of the nature of strength. It raises carryweight, melee damage and helps with weapon handling, but not further than required. Agility raises action points and endurance raises hitpoints, both are something that are best be as high as possible, unlike cw and melee damage. But even if strength had a benefit to raise it up to ten, it still wouldn't be excuse to have low str chars unable to carry anything.

my question to avv is basically "Ok you can mine with a PvP character... what next?"

I'll answer... "Well I'll relog to my crafter and make what I need..."

So I ask, why not just do that with the crafter?

The answer is that carryweight is needed for general gameplay, not only crafting. You need crafting skills only for crafting but carryweight is needed for gathering, looting, base organizing, trading, farming npc encounters, shopping and hauling.

[T-888]

http://img341.imageshack.us/img341/4100/88675905.jpg

Please that is highly unpractical , it shoots approximately 2.5 times slower than the average build with 12 action points and BROF , witch is a huge tradeoff.

[Crazy]

Please that is highly unpractical , it shoots approximately 2.5 times slower than the average build with 12 action points and BROF , witch is a huge tradeoff.

Indeed, that char would be raped by a real tank, and well, in sniper fight, IRL luck matters much, but the other one would have better chances as well.