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[maszrum]

i noticed very intreting thing in fonline - if something is to strong that mean - nerf it ! not find some balance , just nerf it!
smallgunz these are not weak as most of you thought, smallgunz have a big advantage(50hex!) that nobody uses.. i see snipers who still shooting form 15-20hex
someone tried to weaken biggunz, and he screw it , sorry but playing bigguner without avenger is like lotery now. have you noticed 20dmg hits by lsw/minigun ? even form 2-3 hex to jackets/metals without psycho


personally i like different variety of builds/classes but for this moment is all about avengers + long range sg snipers support
there is so much possiblities to make this game balaced for every class ! different bulds for smallgunz/energy/throwing and even hth
shame.. developers are not interested

btw. playing as EFECTIVE bigguner is fucking expensive
http://i49.tinypic.com/15hh110.jpg - this is my stuff for every single battle

[DarkRyder]

Posseble solution for small guns is in modified bozar... or modified sniper.. for large cal... you need to craft it... it takes sniper+10 alloys+11 metal parts or something like it..
single shoot only... dmg 40-60 , rng. 50,  single cost 9ap, aimed 10ap.(or even 11 so you must take action boy) st req. 7. (or 8 ), perk penetrate (or whatever)
it would be something like antimatirial rifle... new type of ammo .50 cal sniper round. (or 7.62 if you cant/want make new ammo)
st7 and ag 10.. should limit luck 10 characters with 25(35)% crit.


and why did you put restrictions on 7.62 mm ammo crafting?
FN-FAL HPFA would be nice weapon in pvp fight.

[Attero]

there si only oen thign that can make rifles better - is to make them more accurate
it makes sense - i dont see why rifle should follow same sbread quantities as miniguns
safely mid line can use 50% of 2/3 of bullets rahter then 1/3 - think it would help alot without making rifles o-0-wtf.

or we can keep thigns as they are fifles were never good in fallout , you could use them here and then but i wouldnt go hunting enclave with one ;p

BTW dunno about FN FAL HPFA but normal one FN FAL have no perk. .i think it should have long range...

[Raegann]

SG is not weak at all. You can actually have very strong SG build, if you can count. Actually even my BG char with +-35 SG skill is carrying a combat shotgun to solve short range conflicts and having almost no problems with missing, dealing very solid bursts (3*15-25.. which I could hardly do with any BG for the price of 3 cheap shotgun shells). Needless to say the costs of SG and BG build can't be  compared (actually I could supply many SG chars, if I weren't disassembling everything for few metal parts to craft for BG, which takes a lots). This was also always an argument of GMs, when talking about "low" SG damage. I don't see point in making SG better or making BG weaker, both are good as they're now. SG have nice critical chances on aimed shots, even if not creating crit build, you can harvest all the equipment from NPCs.. BG have nice base dmg, not very good chances on criticals, also it's nice to have long range on minigun, but on such range you won't deal such superb damage and for sure you probably gonna craft more than 3/4 of all the guns, you're gonna need, ammo is even worse.

I don't get it, if SG is so weak, are all the people such stupids or masochists, that almost every player I encounter is fighting with SG? I don't think so.. SG are actually well balanced and easy to play with.
Btw. looking forward to see the flamer improved as people were speaking about it some time ago here on forum. Maybe then it could be used instead of so-told-weak burst shotguns, which pays off on this kind of range even if your BG skill is like 120 higher than SG.
You really don't want to see this kind of balance, where SG and BG chars (good builds, if you know how to do it) both do same damage per turn (and SG chars dealing criticals every turn, sometimes keeping enemy on the ground the entire combat).

[Lordus]

Kilgore - BG don't need any further nerf.

     SG need to have their range - Yes, but most combats are not fight in 40+ hex.
     BG are supposed to be powerful - They are and they will be.
     Getting them and enough ammo for them is harder - Are you sure? Because most ppls use this build. From my experience of most PvP involved gang now there is not REAL problem to get enough ammo with good time economy

 maszrum

   smallgunz have a big advantage(50hex!) that nobody uses - Only SNIPER rifle has this range and this thread is not about BIG GUNS vs Sniper riffles. This range is also theoretical. Even when you have big skill in small guns, most of fights are not fight at range 40+ hex... But assault riffle class have smaller distance.

 DarkRyder

 Posseble solution for small guns is in modified bozar... or modified sniper - I dont like the solution of overpowered big guns which will involve adding new better small gun. After this change, the biggunners will cry that bozars are overpowered and they will want some changes with bigguns. No, that is the bad way.

 Attero

 there si only oen thign that can make rifles better - is to make them more accurate - Not only one thing, but the major, yes, i agree.

Raegann
  SG is not weak at all. You can actually have very strong SG build, if you can count - Only real good char is sniper build. And that is the problem. Purpose of this topic is to make some changes that will involve existing SG into the PvP.

 Needless to say the costs of SG and BG build can't be  compared - and because of this, majority of PvP builds are biggunners. Ehm, where is the mistake in your calculation?

 I don't see point in making SG better or making BG weaker - BG must be strong.. But not easy to handle in combat. If you have advantage in forepower, you must have disadvantege in something else. And i think if biggunners have to think in fight, not only constantinously bursting, that will solve that problem.

SG have nice critical chances on aimed shots - ONLY SNIPERS.. Do you see that. For you and for many others is Small gun = Sniper build. But this is bad with the numbers of guns which we can craft.

 even if not creating crit build, you can harvest all the equipment from NPC - Yes, but that guns are useless now in PvP and thats the problem.

 BG have nice base dmg, not very good chances on criticals, SG are actually well balanced and easy to play with - With my sniper build (10 luck + 3 x more + 1 better) i need big luck to do 106 dmg.. (Metal MK2).  Most of my hits have 40-50 dmg,  one half of my shots knokcs and i can not usefully cripple eye because of i need enemy infront of me, so i must think about which enemy i will shot and even if i choose the right one, i need to have real luck, because until i aim on his eyes, he can change direction . But this is okay, i am sniper, i must think in combat, i dont need to kill enemy with 3 hits.
  

 I suggest to make snipers build and BG build more difficult to handle in combat (sniper is already difficult) and SG assault riffle class with average damage and small difficulty to handle in combat. So players which use bigguns now will start to think how it use and others will move to assault riffle class. Assault riffle class will be cheapest but also usable in combat, so result will be that many new players should easily join PvP with better chances to survives.

[Raegann]

Raegann
  SG is not weak at all. You can actually have very strong SG build, if you can count - Only real good char is sniper build. And that is the problem. Purpose of this topic is to make some changes that will involve existing SG into the PvP.

I think there is a PvP and "PvP" I mean - sniper build is the only good because of the f*cking nobrainer real time. It's just about one shot and bye, so there is no opportunity to use anything else than max range and aimed. I'm not into the town control etc., but I was quite satisfied with 12 AP SG build in TB fights. Problem is, that most of the PvP is RT, so actually BG and SG both don't need to think a lot. It's not the solution to make more guns like sniper rifle, this will only make useful 2-3 guns instead of 1 and everybody will still use a sniper build, because aimed shots is the only chance.

Needless to say the costs of SG and BG build can't be  compared - and because of this, majority of PvP builds are biggunners. Ehm, where is the mistake in your calculation?

There is no mistake in the calculation. The fact is, that majority of PvP chars can simply afford it, using alts to craft/ barter etc.

I don't see point in making SG better or making BG weaker - BG must be strong.. But not easy to handle in combat. If you have advantage in forepower, you must have disadvantege in something else. And i think if biggunners have to think in fight, not only constantinously bursting, that will solve that problem.

There is already a disadvantage - in the costs. PvP players just aren't NBs and know, how to make their living. I play my BG char as anything else, just the same thinking needed as with EG/ SG. I also do PvM, PvP usually in random encounters and TB, where you must actually think a bit (not every build is 6AP fast shot stupid who can only do a burst and nothing else). If any change, then it shouldn't affect PvM of BG chars and should balance SG guns to make more variety in used types of weapons, not balance SG with BG. So I think in general I agree with you, but I'm also afraid, what would the usual balancing look like (aka "nerf").

SG have nice critical chances on aimed shots - ONLY SNIPERS.. Do you see that. For you and for many others is Small gun = Sniper build. But this is bad with the numbers of guns which we can craft.

I have SG and EG chars, none of them actually can be called crit builds or snipers (ofc, it's quite hard to have low to-hit values even on the full range on lvl 21 - so it's hard to say what is sniper and what is not), but I just do a crit like every turn, with the crit chance percentage of aimed shots.

even if not creating crit build, you can harvest all the equipment from NPC - Yes, but that guns are useless now in PvP and thats the problem.

You can harvest even new sniper rifles and enough .223 ammo, if you don't want to use any other gun. But I understand your point and quite agree, that most of the weapons are gonna be dismantled or sold.

I suggest to make snipers build and BG build more difficult to handle in combat (sniper is already difficult) and SG assault riffle class with average damage and small difficulty to handle in combat. So players which use bigguns now will start to think how it use and others will move to assault riffle class. Assault riffle class will be cheapest but also usable in combat, so result will be that many new players should easily join PvP with better chances to survives.

I think this is not a problem of BG/ SG balance, it's the problem of who shots first in PvP. In this system of PvP there is only choice of BG/ sniper, cause you just can't make small guns burst as mighty as BG bursts, which would make more variety of guns/ builds used. Also sniper build would be more difficult than BG, if there weren't people with mighty hotkey-send-eye-shot-packet, in the current system it's just all about who shots first (you may be honest and click everything manually, but this doesn't change anything, only sometimes you just gonna be slower than your cheating opponent).
PS(Edit): Just because people can afford it, you can't say, that BG isn't much more expensive. I can afford it, but I must work like hell just to enjoy some playing.

[Lordus]

I think this is not a problem of BG/ SG balance, it's the problem of who shots first in PvP  - Disagree. Sorry, but it looks you dont have many PvP experience. I never used eyeshot hotkey but after last wipe, it is not about first shots in sniper class.

[Raegann]

I think this is not a problem of BG/ SG balance, it's the problem of who shots first in PvP  - Disagree. Sorry, but it looks you dont have many PvP experience. I never used eyeshot hotkey but after last wipe, it is not about first shots in sniper class.

I would like to learn something new from your perspective, so feel free to explain, what is it about, if not who shot first and luck (dealing crit). I just don't have a need to join the standard realtime PvP, because it isn't entertaining enough for me and it's a little bit stupid, so I'm glad for every TB PvP. So I assume you're quite right, I don't have experience with what is called PvP by PvP factions and players, who enjoy town control and swarming place in realtime. But as well as PvP is everything where there is player versus player involved in fighting, I must also say, that almost every opportunity for PvP (= in wasteland-is-harsh it's like every player I encounter) I have is used.. and it's not such little numbers of fights per day. Of course, I totally respect people doing their "PvP" in town control and/or waiting with grid in range for newcomers, cause this is called real PvP here.

[Selva]

I really dream about a leather jacket+10mm pistols fight, but we only see BGs and snipers, nothing else.

Mostly due to the high levels of HP, 170? 250? come on.

[Berko]

I agree with Lordus in all

Better weapon for small gun is the sniper(don't have the 'scoped' perk ). It use 8 AP for hit in head/eyes (no good chance to cripple in other parts of body so head and eyes for critical) and you need to choice the part of the body you have to hit.
So we have to click a guy, click a part of his body if he is already here .. that take only some second but that system was instored for turn-based mode.
In real time we have the AP penality for aimed shot AND the time to choose a part of body. (double penalty for every small gun who make aimed shot, maybe majority of player actually)
A sniper don't really have time to shoot a guy  at 50 hex if he is moving, and difficult to find a 50 hex way without wall/obstacle
The better hit I have make is a critical with a sniper (without finess) : 136 dammage (but most of times 20-40)

Minigun is not the best weapon for biggun, and every biggunner have fast shot. So it use 5(EDIT:6, thanks Attero) AP and only to click on a guy to hit him.
And can easily hit a guy at 30-35 hex (just click on him) to make 80-120 dammage without critic and sometimes more, sometimes more than more (that why we can hit alone in blue suit and 1 minigun 5 men of brocken hills caravans)

So i agree with two problem : action point and distance.
I agree on the fact that biggun can hit to long distance but some of them are machine gun, machine no human, which can destroy some building. Try to hit a rabbit far away with a minigun and you will destroy all around but the rabbit have great chance to be alive. These weapon are only accurate when fixed on something (on ground or on aircraft/helicopter) so maybe make a special perk wich have a great bonus for low range and a penality for long range? but it is not really a solution when we have 240% in the skill :p


And we take sniper rifle because :

Fast-shot smallgun need the bonus rate of fire (5-6 hits in your face! .. without shitty jet :p)

Burst with assault small gunner need some update of their weapon (little more range? have rounds per burst a multiple of ammo capacity?)

Burst with shotgun look to be update? don't tested it.


I think when bonus rate of fire will work again (after wipe?) and update assault weapon, the diversity of small gun will come back a little. And fix sneak will help too. And if someone are hit 3 times in the head with my sniper I want to see him dead, not running

[Attero]

lol @Berko

first big guns costs base of 7 ap what you can check on wiki so with fast shot its 6.

Second everyone needs to aim on running targets same way , as aimed shot you jsut need another click on body part - thats not realy hard is it ?
if you need to train go some real trime encounters ...

also the game is not balanced just in fire power but you need to take time investment too ...
with small gun you can kill hit with 1 bullet if you get lucky enough or 3-4 ... a mingun user will burn min 30 and if he hits something at distance he will probably need more then one round ..

i have both big gun and small gun sniper and its much funner on regular basic to play sniper... sure if you shot and dont proc a KO / cripple and you are near target you are pretty much f-ed but you have advantages alswere...

[Lordus]

, as aimed shot you sjut need anotehr click on body part - thats not realy ahrd is it ?

 It is hard, because sometimes you see only thin lane and it is hard to shot and aim..

 But i must repeat. This topic is about in PvP unsusable guns. Sniper gun is balanced now i think.

[Berko]

Erf yeah you are rigth Attero it's 7 AP
I was .. tired?

[Elmehdi]

1. Lower the range of big guns
          LSW      from 40 to 35
   Minigun  from 35 to 30
   Avenger from 40 to 35 hex.

Lol, most of biggunners have their perception not higher than 6, so they can't even see as far as they can shoot. Consequently, such adjustment will not change much  .
 

4. Disable fast shot trait. Traits should add advantage in one way and disadvantage in other way. But for biggunners, there is
only advantage. So for biggunners this is not trait, but 1 free perk. Free perk for most powerfull and dominating class of weapons.
Is this neccesary?

Simply removing the trait is too radical, since it's a good option for a typical assault build. I suppose that making it work only with weapons that can actually perform aimed shots, should solve the problem and make some sense.

I have no reservations to the the rest of Lordus' ideas  .

I think that these couple of things, if applied to miniguns/LSW, should do the job:

• Boost it's damage at low range (yes, I'm not kidding  )
• Increase it's bullet spread at mid-max distance,
• Add tremendous splash damage at mid-max distance (perfect weapon for eliminating large groups of players - just as it's supposed to be, I guess)
• The most important: make it much harder to get. Minigun on a battlefield should be considered as an ultimate weapon, used only for heavy and crucial fights, not for just common, one player bluesuit-hunting PvP. A player armed with a heavy machine gun should be escorted by smallgunners, since losing it would be harmful for the whole team. This can be achieved by making it's crafting process require some unique, uncraftable parts, available only in some particular vendors' stocks and only from time to time (kinda like CA before the wipe). It could be an engine of some sort (I don't exacly know how miniguns work, but I guess there must be some engine in it  . This graphics could be used:
  )
• Drastically increasing its deterioration rate (like 3-4% per burst), along with repairing difficulty and ammo weight would, be relevant as well, so full machine gun operating, would actually require a crew.

Big guns are supposed to have an unbelievable punch. It's a maintanance, operating the weapon and its crafting process that should be looked into. Only big factions should be able to support them properly and fully use their firepower. That would "activate" a whole variety of alternative, assault SG builds for a common use.

As for "no runing with a minigun in active slot"... the idea itself seems reasonable but practically it would end up being like press "b" - run - press "b" - shoot - press "b" - run.. it would be just annoying. So, either it's "no runing with a minigun in inventory" (and that would be quite a drastic nerf) or just accept it as it is, in the sake of a gameplay.

That's how I see it.
Thanks for reading  .

[Solar]

All of these things would be multiple nerfs to the point these expensive to craft, buy, maintain Minis etc really wouldn't be worth bothering with - that isn't the objective

Big Guns should still be the ultimate in slapping the crap out of someone. They need a bit of work, but some of these ideas just go way too far.