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[Rascal_]

I think redding is better than reno because redding is new

and ur wrong in ur thinking couse there are no f*** inner girds, city is bigger and offer more than just st8 streets in order to movement and tactics

[Eternauta]

Let's remain positive: At least this experience has shown to those who claim that without TC mechanisms, without militia, without PVP teams, everything would be better, that they are completely wrong.

There will always be organized groups ready to break everything, just for fun.

To stop them, a group of looners is not enough. You need a true team, organized for combat: builds, communications tools, tactics, etc..

Let's hope those dreamers will not lose memory and will remember that a PVP team can be useful sometimes...

Why is it so hard to understand my point? (I'm not saying you have to agree with me). What I meant is that without TC, this kind of GM driven events would not make people think that it's all bout a GM making one faction keep the town for a crazy amount of time so they get an enormous income from the TC box.

Without TC, PvP gangs would still be able to fight against their enemies using their powerbuilds, and these PvPers would still be needed to defend projects, etc. I didn't say anything against that.

It sometimes seems PvPers need something as explicit as a "towns can be taken" feature to actually think about gathering and fighting against other gangs...

I still think that no-TC would be nice, or, even better, a TC system similar to what Ravenous Rat said in some other trollthread: you need faction members actually standing inside the town map if you want it to remain yours. It'll make factions take the town and stay there instead of taking and only come back for the TC box loot.

[Black Key]

You don't get it...

...What I meant is that without TC, this kind of GM driven events would not make people think that it's all bout a GM making one faction keep the town for a crazy amount of time so they get an enormous income from the TC box.

We known that from the beginning... Nobody's complaining about that...

I still think that no-TC would be nice, or, even better, a TC system similar to what Ravenous Rat said in some other trollthread: you need faction members actually standing inside the town map if you want it to remain yours. It'll make factions take the town and stay there instead of taking and only come back for the TC box loot.

I've read all the posts in that thread (and in your thread speaking about RP...).
It seems you did not, so => http://fodev.net/forum/index.php?topic=18860.msg156394#msg156394
And even if there's some trolls in it there is mainly good ideas in it...

Anyway, my point is: I've been in an RP team for more than one year. We have sometimes been in conflict with PVP teams and especially the lawyers. But at the end, you discover that without the help of such teams, you can just enjoy small RP but not organize RP events. Moreover, when you finally work with them on your project, you discover that most of them have RP chars and that some of them are very involve in RP things even if they don't speak about it and even if you don't know their RP alts.

And you've never heard them saying: "let's kick out RP players and delete RP mechanisms In Game. We don't need them to enjoy our PVP"... And if you don't know, there is PVP players who use to disconnect their PVP chars after the battle and to come back in the city with other alts... To enjoy RP moments... Yes, it's possible to enjoy both...

So if you wanna make more RP, more events In Game, you basically and most of the time need the protection of a PVP team and PVP mechanisms to help this PVP team. Except of course if you do things that i've read: play only with RP players on a private server.

The 2238 system is maybe not perfect, but a lot of things are here to help you. But it's an open system. It means diversity. It means also that you can't choose with whom you will play. Some players would like to change the system. Not to make it better for everybody, just better for them and to invite those who dont play like them to chose another server. Some says: Fallout is an RP Game so 2238 should be an RP Server.

In the thread speaking about TC in the next session (http://fodev.net/forum/index.php?topic=18860.0), the result of the pool is very clear: only a quarter of the players think that TC should be removed. The majority wants to continue to enjoy TC (not only PVP). It means that the minority will have to deal with TC if they wanna do RP things In Game. So now, they should learn and understand the PVP mechanisms, contact PVP teams and ask for their protection. And for some, it will be a good opportunity to forget their prejudices, meet the others, and not only the ones they have choosen.

Anyway, it will surely be one of the best time of the game because most of the PVP teams enjoy to fight for something. And if you wanna change the PVP teams, the way they act, the better way is to do it from inside...

PS: don't forget that it's the end of the session (sooooonnn ?) so some teams who could start a new project don't want to do it now cause everything could be wipe tomorrow... It's boring for everybody...

[Nice_Boat]

(...)
Anyway, my point is: I've been in an RP team for more than one year. We have sometimes been in conflict with PVP teams and especially the lawyers. But at the end, you discover that without the help of such teams, you can just enjoy small RP but not organize RP events. Moreover, when you finally work with them on your project, you discover that most of them have RP chars and that some of them are very involve in RP things even if they don't speak about it and even if you don't know their RP alts.

And you've never heard them saying: "let's kick out RP players and delete RP mechanisms In Game. We don't need them to enjoy our PVP"... And if you don't know, there is PVP players who use to disconnect their PVP chars after the battle and to come back in the city with other alts... To enjoy RP moments... Yes, it's possible to enjoy both...
(...)

Thank you for this sensible post. I'd also add that there's room enough for both RP and metagame-heavy PvP in terms of locations - there are so many towns that remain unused that GMs barging into TC towns or even players suggesting the removal of TC are not even funny anymore. If I were to be a bit spiteful, I'd say that you "RP guys" like Surf, Etarnauta, Jovanka etc. have had your Cathedral, Necropolis, Vault 15 or even Toxic Caves (not even mentioning all the unused guarded locations that have their own RP potential too) and what have you ever done with them? Nothing much, really. Surf brought his Excellent Project(tm) to Redding (which was doing perfectly fine), sort of has broken the town and what did we get instead of TC? Again - nothing much, really. Heck, I'd say that in terms of community building you've done less than them PvP apes who at least occasionally actually decide they're going to hold the city, maintain some order and allow non-hostile dudes in. And yet you people have the audacity to demand the removal of TC (which really works and keeps a lot of people in the game) because from what you're saying you have no room for something... duh, why don't you use the space you were already given first? Why do you want to arbitrarily ruin the game for guys who expect something else than you - because no fun allowed? People like BHH or TSAR I at least partially understand, they want their own town where they make the rules and maintain some freedom for the outsiders - that is all good since they fight for it on a daily basis, but people who just whine that TC prevents them from doing something they've never really done despite having all the tools are really, really weird.

[T-888]

and ur wrong in ur thinking couse there are no f*** inner girds, city is bigger and offer more than just st8 streets in order to movement and tactics

Well i was there yesterday quite a lot , didn't see anything different other than more people and butchery oh by the way everything happen on the " main street "

I still think that no-TC would be nice, or, even better, a TC system similar to what Ravenous Rat said in some other trollthread: you need faction members actually standing inside the town map if you want it to remain yours. It'll make factions take the town and stay there instead of taking and only come back for the TC box loot.

I think people still don't believe me those would be " faction proxies " actually hanging around the city and collecting the TC box reward but hey okay i would gladly give the system a try and then we would see what really happens , fonline2238 is still beta right ?

Sometimes it's actually pointless to discuss because no matter how much you discuss you can never ever be sure what actually happens ingame before you experienced it , redding is a good example.

The 2238 system is maybe not perfect, but a lot of things are here to help you. But it's an open system. It means diversity. It means also that you can't choose with whom you will play. Some players would like to change the system. Not to make it better for everybody, just better for them and to invite those who dont play like them to chose another server. Some says: Fallout is an RP Game so 2238 should be an RP Server.

Exactly nothing is perfect both sides have to agree on a solution that benefits all.

heh redding is fixed

[Jotisz]

Got questions? use pm.

As I said whining always happens no matter what its impossible to please everyone, however if we look at the aspect of the game Fonline is based on Fallout which is an RPG not an isometric shoot em up though the combat aspect is fun still RP events should be more important, personally I find the pvp aspect a bit like an isometric Quake (its not a negative thing I like that game and the fast paced action), on the other hand the RPG aspects are almost missing there not the quests they are nice and good but the majority don't play a role. In the beginning when I started I expected something more RPG oriented my first char even had a background and was unique lately I started to make background for my unimaginative clones of characters it doesn't change the fact they are just clones and poorly made chars though.
The sad thing is that any try to make the game closer to Fallout is getting called attacks against the player base...
Anyway I don't like that this event got abandoned and would wish if it would be continued by any GM, but I feel it will be scraped.

[Johnnybravo]

Combat has little to do with quake, but that is irrelevant.
Roleplay does not suffer from lack of GM intervention, but from lacking game design.

Don't get me wrong, there are many cool and often unseen features, but often they are unfinished or useless. For example : what the hell is purpose of holding radio, buying it, and having to obtain it every time you goddamn die, when you always have your pib boy (far more expensive piece of equipment) with you? Joining an IRC channel then eliminates nearly all usefulness of the radio (with the exception of encounter invitations, or distress signaling how is it really called).

Support roleplay by making better and more realistic suggestions for developers or by reviewing current features.
Keep in mind that you cannot just bother people with more grind by saying "you have no to eat and drink", but why shouldn't eating and drinking at least do something? Roleplayers will be happy just for visual or vanity effects, while others will NOT be affected and will not affect roleplayers.

People often compare Game Masters to their desktop/paper game counterparts. But honestly, you don't need them in that sense (the reason you want to have them in non-computer roleplay games is that you will not have your fun spoiled by background information that your character should not know, but is required to run the game), because server already does it.
Sure game masters can intervene and do things that are (yet) not generated by server and maybe will not ever be, but you can't even honestly require game master to help every roleplayer out there.

[Eternauta]

And you've never heard them saying: "let's kick out RP players and delete RP mechanisms In Game. We don't need them to enjoy our PVP"...

Maybe not among your friends, but

All friggin' MadMax wannabes should friggin' hang.

But anyway, it's still true that faction PvP can still happen without TC. And it's true that TC works fine for "metagame-heavy PvP" (as Nice_Boat called it, and I'm not using those terms in a pejorative way) but some of its characteristics clash with RP, in my opinion. Examples are server messages ("this faction is taking that town, countdown") and Pip-Boy statistics, which give you automatic information out of nowhere.

But, I hope you understand, I think this discussion is quite off-topic in this thread, so I won't type a longer post about this.

I admit I have still not read that long "TC next session" thread because I've been studying for university exams and I just didn't feel like reading some thread that was quite long already the first time I saw it. When I spoke about Ravenous Rat's idea, I meant something he'd posted in another thread ("Redding"?). So, I believe there is no point in discussing TC in this thread when we have that other one. I will read it, then, unless somebody already said something very similar to what I think, I'll post there.

[Lexx]

when you always have your pib boy (far more expensive piece of equipment) with you?

You don't have a PipBoy, it's just the interface.

[JovankaB]

Sure game masters can intervene and do things that are (yet) not generated by server and maybe will not ever be, but you can't even honestly require game master to help every roleplayer out there.

GMs can't do that much anyway, they can't insert real content into game to be like real GMs for roleplayers.
Also I think 2238 devs wouldn't allow that even if it was possible, because from what I saw they want to have total creative control. And it's normal, because it's their game. And it would be chaos, so it's wise. It's just not a platform to have GMs like from pen&paper. And engine doesn't allow that anyway so it doesn't matter. So you are thrown into some premade environment that isn't particularly rich in features for RPs. It's good for team PvP.

Also possesing NPCs and controlling environment is rather clunky.
I made something like special quest for one random player once and it took me like half a day and turned out to be rather poor.
Obviously it doesn't work, but I had to try. Then I sticked to mutant attacks which people here enjoy.

So all GMs can do is spawn things that exist in game already. Anything more advanced requires developers and server restarts.
That's why best you can see from GMs is some spawn lots of stuff and lets fight events or pure social things, like some poetry tournaments.

Things like the one Surf tried end with disaster, because they require consant presence of GMs.
It was not town controlled by NCR. It was chaos. You can't just spawn dumb AI and hope for the best.

So maybe replace GM term with "server moderator" and it will be clear.

[Lordus]

Instead of evolution, surf brings revolution.

 My question (suggestion). Instead of spawm of NCR Rangers with their karma, rules... why can not GM create something more simple to "support roleplay in Redding", something like "Wanamingo infestation" that has some certain connection between city and original Fallout game. People of Redding would need to unite to kill every wanamingo on ground or in mines. This could infestation could be repeted every weak with some minor changes.

[Eternauta]

You don't have a PipBoy, it's just the interface.

When I got the time, I'm gonna make a new character and do the quests, because I am sure I've read some little part of a dialogue with a NPC who mentions the player character's Pip-Boy.

"Wanamingo infestation"

This could infestation could be repeted every weak with some minor changes.

That kind of stuff does sound nice. It doesn't sound much more complex than the normal battle events against NPCs and it has connection to the setting, etc.

[JovankaB]

Maybe if it was Izual's NCR Army taking control, it would work somehow.
But PvP apes would go apeshit about such thing 

[Wichura]

Yeah, "foking lolual spawns them free stuff zomfg!!1111". Kinda discouraging if you are GM :>

[Black Key]

It's funny to see how some, who believe themselves intelligent and smart, are able to reduce a complex human environment in two boxes:

PVP box: the "apes", the monkeys, morons with oversized egos, who spend one third of their time to break everything, one third to collect useless things and the last one to look at their e-penis.

RP Box: the best one, their box of course, the one of the intellectuals, detached from material possessions and entirely focused on a spiritual promise, the brilliant creators and their natural humility...

Inflated with arrogance and conceit, stinking more than corpses of molerats...

One more time: simple minds like simple things... (Yep, i can also say that you're a bunch of assholes with a rich vocabulary...)