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3D model focus

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Luther Blissett:
Thought this was maybe worth a separate thread / discussion (merge it with main 3D dev thread if not).

Basically, at the moment we've got a lot of "bits" in different places. If you look at Graf's trackers, there's a lot that's been done so far, but there's some other bits that need doing to connect everything together. i.e. we could make another 100 additional armours, but if they're never rigged or implemented by code, they'll never do anything except look awesome on a few screenshots. Another option is to go through all the existing stuff and improve it - this may however involve re-doing work we've already done - but in theory, that'd probably need doing eventually anyway.

A while back, I made a sort of list for someone asking about "when will it be ready". There's been good progress on a lot of that stuff, but I wonder if we should re-focus it a little.

What I was considering is that we could move the "fully testable" bit forwards by putting some of the "extra stuff" later - so ignore the suit, long coats etc for the time being, and focus on making leather, metal and combat armours as good as is currently possible. Basically to make the 3D versions of everything that currently exists in the game first, then add the extra bits afterwards.

So first, we'd try and get this stuff sorted :
- A final agreed shadow / light / specular setting (I'm happy with the current one, but if it changes in future, we'd likely have to re-change the textures)
- White skinned Male bald, male short hair, male long hair and female models
- All animations for these
- Various death animations
- Various weapon effect animations
- Bluesuit, leather jackets, leather armours, metal armours, combat armours
- Generic pistol, generic rifle, generic SMG etc (i.e. like the original sprites, we initially use one model for all weapons of that type
- floor models for those armours and weapons
- something about the timings of animations - currently the enemy is "hit" before you've moved your gun or fist
- Models and textures linked up and implemented to appear in hand / on body via game mechanics, rather than "param codes"

The most problematic ones are weapon effect animations, some of the death animations and the animation timing. I think the other stuff is all much more straightforward. It's mostly adjusting and tweaking. I know Karpov is working on those animations at the moment, but the timing thing might be related to the original engine, rather than something we can change. I'm not sure.


These are current model-to-sprite comparisons. Now we've got the specular stuff working, we should probably redo these textures, or tweak the models a bit. Try to get them just right. Reshaping the models a little until they match the shape, messing with the textures so they're exactly the right shade, tweaking the specular bits until it matches the way the light works on the original sprites, adjusting the skin texture until it matches etc

Once those are done, it's testable, maybe usable in the main game. After that's done, we can add the extra skin tones, extra texture variations for armours, extra body types, start doing the same "tweaks" to try and perfect our additional armours, start adding the extra weapons and hand / floor versions of objects in etc.

Obviously this is only a possible suggestion, and there are many other ways we could focus things (i.e. rig and implement all models and objects we've already made, then do the tweaking and refining later). One problem is that doing things such as the death animations may take a long, long time - and we'd have to pause other things until that's done. There's probably some sort of compromise where we can finish a lot of stuff AND add new stuff, but it needs thinking about.

Essentially, I've recently been experimenting, "researching", tweaking and testing lots of different things - but finishing nothing :) If we agree on a focus or "road map", or at least a priority order, then I (and everyone else helping out) could focus on one thing until it was complete, then move to the next on the list. Much in the way that we have the 3D development trackers, we could maybe do with a "tracker-tracker" - outlining the bullet points of all the bits that need doing.

So, any thoughts on this or other possible ways of focussing the work?

Johnnybravo:

--- Quote ---- Generic pistol, generic rifle, generic SMG etc (i.e. like the original sprites, we initially use one model for all weapons of that type

--- End quote ---
They use 10mm pistol, 10mm smg, club, spear, knife, flamethrower, minigun, and hunting rifle for those so there's nothing generic :d.

--- Quote ---These are current model-to-sprite comparisons. Now we've got the specular stuff working, we should probably redo these textures
--- End quote ---
I'll try to see what all I can do with those normal maps, apparently they will be required (for example there's no way to make that guy in metal armor match his sprite without either adding normal map on him or changing his model to ridiculously detailed version).

--- Quote ---- Various death animations

--- End quote ---
Still not sure if it is possible to do any good flame/electro death anims, but I hope you guys will find something what looks nice enough.

Also It's not the best to rush everything ASAP, because as you can imagine if anyone will add something with significant impact, you can just start half of your things over.
Eg. if somebody painted on shading on diffuse map, it'll look like crap with phong reflection and normal maps.
It's important to be sure what all can be done, and what all are engine developers willing to do for you.

Personally I'd suggest you to do a revision of all model skins, directory structure and fo3d formatting.
Putting everything in one folder, letting anyone chose their own naming will not do good.

Luther Blissett:

--- Quote from: Johnnybravo on September 08, 2011, 09:39:23 pm ---They use 10mm pistol, 10mm smg, club, spear, knife, flamethrower, minigun, and hunting rifle for those so there's nothing generic :d.
--- End quote ---

That's the list I wanted, yes - we could try to focus on making sure those ones are working and perfected first - and use the 10mm for all pistols (like the sprite did) temporarily, then the other's can be refined and added later.


--- Quote from: Johnnybravo on September 08, 2011, 09:39:23 pm ---I'll try to see what all I can do with those normal maps, apparently they will be required (for example there's no way to make that guy in metal armor match his sprite without either adding normal map on him or changing his model to ridiculously detailed version).
--- End quote ---

I think adjusting the metal armour wouldn't need a more detailed model, it just needs a few parts shrinking a bit (the chest plate is too big, I think). Of course, this might not bring it to 100% perfect, but we could see how close we can get it by this method. Seeing if a normal map can be made to work is probably going to be needed at some point though.


--- Quote from: Johnnybravo on September 08, 2011, 09:39:23 pm ---Still not sure if it is possible to do any good flame/electro death anims, but I hope you guys will find something what looks nice enough.
--- End quote ---

I don't know yet either to be honest. Something will work eventually :)


--- Quote from: Johnnybravo on September 08, 2011, 09:39:23 pm ---Also It's not the best to rush everything ASAP, because as you can imagine if anyone will add something with significant impact, you can just start half of your things over.
--- End quote ---

This is a very good point - there's the chance that we'll have to redo the same work 5 times over. If the lighting is changed, many of the textures will need redoing. If it's changed again, they might need redoing again... and so on. If we change one of the armour models, then the resized ones for other body types need redoing as well - and so on.

Of course, there's probably an "optimum" order to get everything done with the least amount of re-doing work. I guess working out this order is the aim of this thread.


--- Quote from: Johnnybravo on September 08, 2011, 09:39:23 pm ---Personally I'd suggest you to do a revision of all model skins, directory structure and fo3d formatting.
Putting everything in one folder, letting anyone chose their own naming will not do good.
--- End quote ---

So far, Karpov has been mostly renaming the files when he's added them to the repository - but yes, we should also think about the best system for naming of files - perhaps including the object IDs in the filename or something suchlike. There's certainly a few rogue filenames amongst them.

jangling:
"Still not sure if it is possible to do any good flame/electro death anims, but I hope you guys will find something what looks nice enough." -
why cant we just use the 2D ones. is it possible to switch from the 3D to 2D?

Because the model litrally changes to black, i think it would look fine to use the 2D sprites if its possible to change them.

Lexx:
We can use the 2d death animation for electro and flamer death, yes.

The model vs. sprite comparison above looks pretty good already, btw. It's better than what people expected when we started.

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