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[manero]

It will not help you. Bypass, bypass, bypass.. i dont trust tesla and i will not trust enclave armor

[LagMaster]

you know something? fuck the combat, why we need to fight? can't we just make bases so we can live with ech others peacefully? can't we build more tents with 1 char so we can have friends in our tents and build a small city of tents, or better, have the option to add someone to the tent so he can see him(like adding a billboard where you can add to friend/enemy list to your tent, or in the pip-boy add friends or foes)

but no, you must come andcomplain with your power builds that do not do as much damage as they whant to("i whant spears to kill in 2-3 hits") asnd so do on, with the zerlings and rushes and PK traps and so do on

well, my point is anyway that non combat builds are imba too, melle/HtH are imba too, everything is imba, but why you complain when you whant to do something?

now i will try to create when i will have some spare time some "balance" features in the weapon sistem, if devs wanna look at it and modify/implement it i ask them, let's make this game more plesant

[Johnnybravo]

Rockets don't knock you out,

Ofcourse they can, but we're not seeing finesse rocket builds.. However point is that splash and direct damage knocks people down without any help from perks ( and it even moves people ). This is by the far the best weapon in the game (for if it was not, who would put it to his or her mercs for use?)

and finally, rockets take 10 AP just for one shot and to reload

To be precise you get 6AP per shot with a BROF, wearing 2 of those you can easily fire two rockets in a "turn". Having just one ammo is the only in-combat disadvantage of the weapon (with ofcourse splash damage hurting you when used point blank, but it's long range weapon). I think the weapon is more offset by logistical disadvantage as expensive ammo ( you get "tube" everywhere, but better rockets are valuable )

whereas snipers it's only 8-9 AP to aim to the eyes and reloading is not required till 6 (or 12 if it's EW)

Sniper rifle has 1 AP penalty compared to other rifles (was like that even in original Fallout), so you need 7AP to aim for eyes with BROF, making it quite demanding. However with range like that it's reasonable for it's users.
Rocket launchers get screwed only at battlefields with long range and choking points, such as Klamath. However this is true for EW as well, because they cannot shoot other snipers even when range difference is that small.

It will not help you. Bypass, bypass, bypass

If we see any less bypasses, people might just quit some builds for good. Announced 5% resist nerfs will not make for any steady damage for laser weaponry, and tesla will own plasma (though since that's completly specific to tesla it could've be quite reasonable). If you don't like your armor bypassed, then it'd make sense if it was not that much to bypass. Considering you can get even up 50% for normal resistance (and much more for other damage types), basic hits tend now to do very low damage.
This is more of balancing stats on critters and guns and keeping game consistent with original Fallout. I guess it'd be much easier to completly reitemize it and make bypass something special. Ofcourse it'd be quite different game...

[Swinglinered]

I have a rocket crit character I'm going to experiment with, but the sneak requirement to make it work relegates it to an expensive (in terms of leveling time) concept test.

With more and better crits, ghost, 2 levels of Action Boy...

Still will only crit 1/3 or so of the time.

So it is a bluesuit build with 2 launchers and limited ammo- really just there to harass.

Better to make a sneak merc leader and have rocket/sniper/minigun mercs that take orders from a hidden leader.

[Daro]

Rockets don't knock you out, (They CAN but only 1% of the time, I have only seen it happen once in my lifetime)

Ofc it does. I'm pretty sure, you don't have BG with Better Critical. With that perk it happens quite often.

[Ulterior]

99% of you didnt understood what I have said.

I say that snipers should be placed in the map edges while entering the scene!!

[Ulterior]

Bypass and knock out are the only chances for a sg to win against a bg. Tune that and you only have bg in FOnline. And even that is not a sure win. I've seen too many times bypasses and knock out by a sniper and still the sniper lost, but almost never i've seen a bg scoring a critical with a mini/avenger and lose a battle. And that is balanced, bg scoring a crit is not as often as sg scoring one. Also, there is TB that is owned by BG. I actually never lost a battle with my BG/burster build against a sg crippler in TB. Better seq, better AP, better damage and the chance to use bg/sg weapons. If you you want to balance something, balance this.

That's is right to the point

[Eternauta]

In my opinion, "combat balance" is not really possible in FOnline.

The most important problem that shows up when we talk about balancing "combat", is what we actually mean when we use that word. FOnline features both real time and turn based modes and each combat mode has its own characteristics. And there is also the difference between PvP and PvE (which in this game are not always separated, as there are slaves and mercs).

2238 also has Town Control, which could be considered some sort of subcategory inside real time (TC is not necessarily the same as real time combat in a random enc, or a skirmish between very small groups, etc.) but even when it is only one of the combat possibilities, TC has become "the" model of combat in 2238, probably because it's the main way for pr0s to show their might. And weapons used in TC are considered "the" weapons of the game.

"Combat" cannot be balanced (this is, make it work perfectly in every kind of combat situation), it can only be made better for a specific kind of combat. If TC is balanced, some people might still whine because build A pwns build B in turn based. Same goes for weapons, Sniper Rifle and Avenger might be balanced but we still have a lot of others weapons that have become marginal.

Tl;dr version here.

[Surf]

"Perfect balance" is impossible. Even big developer studios still twitch and twirl the mechanics on their mmos and are far from being balanced. You're asking for too much here.

[jonny rust]

I think this is pretty much an argument against power gaming/alting rather than lifegiver itself and in my opinion you are absolutely right. Skilled or balanced characters as I would call them have no place alongside 'low intelligent tank builds' or power gamers.

It would be great to wander across the wasteland and find a guy who's a mechanic and pretty damn nifty with a rifle, or a slaver with a fetish for blades. Rather than 150 down syndrome burns victims with an acrobat's agility. However this will never happen and is only possible within the realms of RP.

it could happen, the game just needs to necessitate it. I like the suggestion about making water intake necessary in order to travel. If characters want to go anywhere without a car they will need to be able to find water in the waste which will require a certain level of outdoorsman slanting the scale a bit more towards skilled. If they choose to use a car instead they will need to be able to use a toolkit, especially if driving had risks such as critical car failures.

I think once the game becomes more balanced so will the characters, but I see lifegiver as one of the most unbalancing factors in the game (probably right after the current state of the critical system) mainly because it creates such a huge gap between chars that have it and chars that don't...

[melcma]

There is no way to perfect balance, but it is possible to make a balance.

For me, crits are too much random, sure that, for sustained dmg there is burst, but from 0 dmg to instant kill is too randomized rotfl.

For avenger vs BA
min dmg: 71, max: 97
typical pvp char have near 220 hp (lifegiver x2 + 8 en)
it takes from 3 to 4 bursts to kill
if it takes 4 sec to regen ap from 0 to max (say 12 AP), so 1 ap; 1 sec = 3 ap
with brof you need 18 ap to shoot 3 times = 12+6/3 =  animation time * 3 + 2 sec to regen ap

For Sniper Rifle vs BA
if u take max crit build, 85% crit for eyes, better critical, it's

5% to miss
95% * 0.15 = 14% for non critical strike dealing 5-21 dmg
95% * 0.85 * 0.25 = 20% for dmg x 2, dmg: 28-68
95% * 0.85 * 0.25 = 20% for dmg x 3, dmg: 42-102
95% * 0.85 * 0.2 = 16% for dmg x 3, dmg: 42-102
95% * 0.85 * 0.1 = 8% for dmg x4 dmg: 56-136
95% * 0.85 * 0.2 = 16% that shot will be instant death (let's say its 220 dmg)

for 100 shots, 16 of them is 220 dmg, 8 of them are 56-136 dmg etc, so:
(14*((5+21)/2)) + (20*((28+68)/2)) + (20*((42+102)/2)) + (16*((42+102)/2)) + (8*((56+136)/2)) + (16*220) = 182 + 960 + 1440 + 1152 + 768 + 3520 = 8022 dmg from 100 bullets = average 80 dmg per bullet = 3 shots to kill

and now harder, i take sniper with 10 ap and without brof
1 shot = 8 ap
regeneration: 10:4 = 1 sec is 2.5 AP
3 shots = 24 ap
24 - 10 = 14 : 2.5 = animation time * 3 + 5.6 seconds

maths are correct IF
a) crit table is correct http://images47.fotosik.pl/870/de425613d8ab9ab8gen.jpg (i know it's not but seems to be close)
b) criticals ignores targets DT and DR
c) your target is average pvp guy with 220 hp, brotherhood armor and no thoughness

i know that maths can't be precission, but it's good base to start with balance

Bursters need one, damn feature: number of bullets depending on range, there is no difference between minigun from 30 and from 2 hexes, that's horrible
Good way is from Fallout: Tactics, rifles have are more focused than miniguns, if you stay closer = more dmg, it's more realistic, and more fun, request more iq and skills to play, you need to think about rushing or standing at maximum range

[DocAN.]

Dont forget about "SKILLL" which cant be balanced.
Skilled player in LJ with M60 will easly kill noob guy with top equipment.

Perfect balance does not exist.

[avv]

Dont forget about "SKILLL" which cant be balanced.
Skilled player in LJ with M60 will easly kille noob guy with top equipment.

Perfect balance does not exist.

Ofcourse skill can't be balanced and it's good. Otherwise we would always end up in draw. But the mechanics can and should be as close to balance. Balanced mechanics create smooth and enjoyable gameplay.

[melcma]

Balance is:

Char A can kill Char B, but cannot char C and D
Char B can kill Char C, but cannot char D and A
Char C can kill Char D, but cannot char A and B
Char D can kill Char A, but cannot char B and C

But more balanced is:

Char A can kill Char B and C, but cannot Char D
Char B can kill Char C and D, but cannot Char A
Char C can kill Char D and A, but cannot Char B
Char D can kill Char A and B, but cannot Char C

But more balanced is: (i think thats a point)

Char A can kill Char B and C and have a chance with Char D
Char B can kill Char C and D and have a chance with Char A
Char C can kill Char D and A and have a chance with Char B
Char D can kill Char A and B and have a chance with Char C

And most balanced is: (IMPOSSIBLE)

Char A can kill Char B and Char C and Char D
Char B can kill Char C and Char D and Char A
Char C can kill Char D and Char A and Char B
Char D can kill Char A and Char B and Char C

Example, take a Big Gunner for A, Energy Sniper for B, SG Burster for C and SG Sniper for D.

[Johnnybravo]

Bursters need one, damn feature: number of bullets depending on range, there is no difference between minigun from 30 and from 2 hexes, that's horrible
Good way is from Fallout: Tactics, rifles have are more focused than miniguns, if you stay closer = more dmg, it's more realistic, and more fun, request more iq and skills to play, you need to think about rushing or standing at maximum range

Yeah Tactics bursts were wonderful (though spread damage was a bit bugged and ignoring covers, atleast in unpatched version). It really looked like characters were using smg or assault rifle and not some sort of minigun tearing others to pieces (=Fallout 1h bursts)

http://images47.fotosik.pl/870/de425613d8ab9ab8gen.jpg

Those are not correct (they're from SP Fallout), if they were every single critical in eyes with better criticals would be bypassing, which is definetly not the case.