Other > Off-topic discussions
OSAMA BIN LADEN DEAD
Nice_Boat:
--- Quote from: cogliostro on May 02, 2011, 06:16:32 pm ---Can someone tell me who has killed (and raped) more people, and especially civilians (women and children) in those wars?
--- End quote ---
The insurgents. They sort of don't give a damn who they kill - and are often placing bombs in crowded areas with the intent of killing as many civilians as possible. Don't really remember NATO specifically targetting civilian populations. Also, don't remember NATO troops threatening people with death for cooperation with their legal government.
--- Quote from: cogliostro on May 02, 2011, 06:16:32 pm ---Then who should be marked as terrorist? Who has charged, positioning defensively on their own land, to the Islamics?
--- End quote ---
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northern_Alliance
Oh, and a lot of the insurgents in Iraq and Afghanistan aren't even locals. A lot of fighters are from Pakistan, for example. That'd be like me, a Pole, teaming up with some friends, going over to Germany, placing bombs in city squares and occasionally executing a policeman or a soldier. That's your idea of patriotism and heroism?
--- Quote from: cogliostro on May 02, 2011, 06:16:32 pm ---There is the economical intend. Were the US soldiers who attack them and declare state of war in Middle East.
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That's a blatant lie. Where's that economic intent? Losing untold millions of dollars in supporting the war effort? Claiming the enormous natural resources of Afghanistan? What are they gonna do, steal their sand and rocks? Heck, even in Iraq the foreign companies that profit the most from selling oil are... Chineese. Not to mention the fact that the Iraqi get a lot of profit for themselves and they're mostly better off than under Saddam's rule. Also - how do you declare state of war in the Middle East? Is Middle East a country? That'd be like "declaring a state of war in Asia"...
--- Quote from: cogliostro on May 02, 2011, 06:16:32 pm ---Recently (January, 2011), Obama declares war against Iran, when was supposed to fall back from their military action, by Obama words himself. US is forming wars, not Persia.
--- End quote ---
US is not at war with Iran, there's not a single US military man in Iran, so that's another lie. If you mean economic sanctions - they were approved by the UN due to a state being run by religious fanatics trying to get a hold on nuclear weapons, so your argument is invalid.
--- Quote from: cogliostro on May 02, 2011, 06:16:32 pm ---I personally think they're plenty exhausted of being assaulted, and were now and will for the same, ever trying to defense themselves against oppression. Now, US is giving them more facts for which they will cumulate hate and then will have their fair revenge.
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You're talking oppression, so you must mean the Taliban and their terror campaign conducted against their own population? No? How about Saddam running a police state and killing everyone who tried to oppose him? You want to talk hate or revenge? Look who cheered the most when Saddam was hanged. The friggin' Iraqi people, that's who. Want to talk about hate in Afghanistan? Ask an ANA trooper, or a woman who suddenly can advance in society but is living under constant threat that the Taliban will kill her for doing so. Because apparently being born female and trying to have a successsful career is a crime to them.
--- Quote from: cogliostro on May 02, 2011, 06:16:32 pm ---US and Iraq were friends, but US turn his back on Iraq, looking after profits, as ever.
--- End quote ---
You're missing the part where Saddam invades Kuwait and gets his ass kicked by NATO forces in a legal, justified military operation. But hey, looking for profits is all they do - and screw the Kuwaitis, they should've been left living under a dictatorship enforced by foreign troops.
Y0ssarian:
Lagmaster is right, 'nuff said. Wouldn't be the first time CIA tried to influence an entire country's population by forming "rebel" groups. =P
cogliostro:
--- Quote from: Nice_Boat on May 02, 2011, 07:56:31 pm ---The insurgents. They sort of don't give a damn who they kill - and are often placing bombs in crowded areas with the intent of killing as many civilians as possible. Don't really remember NATO specifically targetting civilian populations. Also, don't remember NATO troops threatening people with death for cooperation with their legal government.
--- End quote ---
And the forces to control some countries in Middle East, has been proven to do not give a damn to what they shoot at (and with what inside the bullets, because as well as in the war in Kosovo, they used Depleted Uranium when restricted, causing an incredible raise in Cancer decease, that's a crime of war).
--- Quote from: Nice_Boat on May 02, 2011, 07:56:31 pm ---http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northern_Alliance
Oh, and a lot of the insurgents in Iraq and Afghanistan aren't even locals. A lot of fighters are from Pakistan, for example. That'd be like me, a Pole, teaming up with some friends, going over to Germany, placing bombs in city squares and occasionally executing a policeman or a soldier. That's your idea of patriotism and heroism?
--- End quote ---
I know that. I'm sure US start invading, am I right? But in the case of Middle East, they are just expelling the invaders out of their lands, as the non-locals agreed to go there even if their lives are in game. The vast majority of the non-locals are from near countries. And I'm sure they do not see patriotism as US see it. Anyway, I do not support patriotism of any country.
You are putting as example only a few extremists, and condemning a whole country, or many, for what they do. That is, in any case, an excuse.
--- Quote from: Nice_Boat on May 02, 2011, 07:56:31 pm ---That's a blatant lie. Where's that economic intent? Losing untold millions of dollars in supporting the war effort? Claiming the enormous natural resources of Afghanistan? What are they gonna do, steal their sand and rocks? Heck, even in Iraq the foreign companies that profit the most from selling oil are... Chineese. Not to mention the fact that the Iraqi get a lot of profit for themselves and they're mostly better off than under Saddam's rule. Also - how do you declare state of war in the Middle East? Is Middle East a country? That'd be like "declaring a state of war in Asia"...
--- End quote ---
I think you're lying here. The massive quantity of possible energy landing on that place on earth, the Middle East, is about the 80% of the world energy supplies. If the US achieves to control the area, all they lose on battle and efforts to rule, will bring usufruct. That usufruct will retrieve the US casualties. All this by ruling the "oil triangle".
Middle East isn't a country, but they work as one. Are you going to see them fighting with each other? I doubt about it. If you do it's probably because another nation get involved.
--- Quote from: Nice_Boat on May 02, 2011, 07:56:31 pm ---US is not at war with Iran, there's not a single US military man in Iran, so that's another lie. If you mean economic sanctions - they were approved by the UN due to a state being run by religious fanatics trying to get a hold on nuclear weapons, so your argument is invalid.
--- End quote ---
Tell the whole story. US was about to, or do intervene via Israel, over Iranian territory, for the same you say here: A probable attack from Iran could endanger the hegemony of the imperialist control of the US-Israel axis and the EU in the Middle East.
--- Quote from: Nice_Boat on May 02, 2011, 07:56:31 pm ---You're talking oppression, so you must mean the Taliban and their terror campaign conducted against their own population? No? How about Saddam running a police state and killing everyone who tried to oppose him? You want to talk hate or revenge? Look who cheered the most when Saddam was hanged. The friggin' Iraqi people, that's who. Want to talk about hate in Afghanistan? Ask an ANA trooper, or a woman who suddenly can advance in society but is living under constant threat that the Taliban will kill her for doing so. Because apparently being born female and trying to have a successsful career is a crime to them.
--- End quote ---
If you point out to their culture, then you should leave them and not try to change what they are, or has been since a long time ago. If the US is wanting to be the Hero, they are remaining as dominator instead. If they would like to change some way of life on your country, then all would not be agree. Put yourself in their place.
--- Quote from: Nice_Boat on May 02, 2011, 07:56:31 pm ---You're missing the part where Saddam invades Kuwait and gets his ass kicked by NATO forces in a legal, justified military operation. But hey, looking for profits is all they do - and screw the Kuwaitis, they should've been left living under a dictatorship enforced by foreign troops.
--- End quote ---
I really don't know when Saddam Hussein invade Kuwait, If it was after US turning his back on him, then there is the reason that US has taken place over kuwait. Strategical location.
Mayck:
11.9. - 4000 dead, war on terror - 100 000+ dead. THE GOOD GUYS WIN!!!
--- Quote from: Y0ssarian on May 02, 2011, 08:10:30 pm ---Lagmaster is right, 'nuff said. Wouldn't be the first time CIA tried to influence an entire country's population by forming "rebel" groups. =P
--- End quote ---
I heard that Al-Quaeda (supported by CIA) was originally supposed to drive out russians from Afganistan, but it got out of hands a bit. Though i don't have this info from reliable sources (well what sources are reliable these days anyway)
--- Quote from: Nice_Boat on May 02, 2011, 07:56:31 pm ---What are they gonna do, steal their sand and rocks?
--- End quote ---
Strange how many people think that there's nothing in there. They got plenty of valuable metals, lithium and other stuff (the oil and gas aren't the only valuable resources).
From what I've heard from one Afghan co-student the Afghans are ofcourse gratefull for getting rid of the Taliban, but they are also pretty pissed about americans not giving a damn about civilian (human-shields) casualties when it comes to artillery strikes against radicals.
Nice_Boat:
--- Quote from: cogliostro on May 02, 2011, 08:48:56 pm ---And the forces to control some countries in Middle East, has been proven to do not give a damn to what they shoot at (and with what inside the bullets, because as well as in the war in Kosovo, they used Depleted Uranium when restricted, causing an incredible raise in Cancer decease, that's a crime of war).
--- End quote ---
Depleted Uranium does not cause cancer (there were numerous studies dealing with this issue and none offered any conclusive evidence), it's just a very hard piece of metal that vastly improves armor penetration over normal ammunition, aside from Tungsten-based stuff. Yes, it's a toxic metal - but the only moment you'd be inhaling it would be if a projectile penetrated your vehicle or struck somewhere close by - and the fact that your body would be simultaneously grilled and penetrated by a large number of armor shards sort of makes it a moot point.
--- Quote from: cogliostro on May 02, 2011, 08:48:56 pm ---I know that. I'm sure US start invading, am I right? But in the case of Middle East, they are just expelling the invaders out of their lands, as the non-locals agreed to go there even if their lives are in game. The vast majority of the non-locals are from near countries. And I'm sure they do not see patriotism as US see it. Anyway, I do not support patriotism of any country.
--- End quote ---
What happened was Afghans expelled the Taliban with the help of US troops. Even if the US didn't "invade" there'd be fighting anyway simply because the Taliban weren't really liked by anyone aside from their Pakistani supporters. I don't think that taking a side in a civil war and letting the victors establish their own state ran according to their own rules could be called an invasion. Americans helped Afghans win their country back, now they're there to make sure it stays that way until the country can properly support itself.
--- Quote from: cogliostro on May 02, 2011, 08:48:56 pm ---You are putting as example only a few extremists, and condemning a whole country, or many, for what they do. That is, in any case, an excuse.
--- End quote ---
You are the one siding with the extremists and dictators here. Most Afghans and Iraqis would be happy if the insurgencies simply lost and the people running them moved the hell out instead of screwing up their lives. These wars are ongoing only due to militant islamic extremism supplying the insurgents with foreign cannon fodder and funds and contrary to what some people would believe not everyone likes that out there. Heck, there are some 150 000 ANA and 300 000 Iraqi Army soldiers fighting against those insurgents as we speak, which sort of proves my point.
--- Quote from: cogliostro on May 02, 2011, 08:48:56 pm ---I think you're lying here. The massive quantity of possible energy landing on that place on earth, the Middle East, is about the 80% of the world energy supplies. If the US achieves to control the area, all they lose on battle and efforts to rule, will bring usufruct. That usufruct will retrieve the US casualties. All this by ruling the "oil triangle".
--- End quote ---
Get your facts straight. It's not classified information, the US does not really benefit from Iraqi oil exports and Afghanistan doesn't have natural resources to speak of.
--- Quote from: cogliostro on May 02, 2011, 08:48:56 pm ---Middle East isn't a country, but they work as one. Are you going to see them fighting with each other? I doubt about it. If you do it's probably because another nation get involved.
--- End quote ---
Actually they've been fighting each other more than they've been fighting us. You talk politics, yet you don't know history - just what you'd expect from a leftist, lol.
--- Quote from: cogliostro on May 02, 2011, 08:48:56 pm ---Tell the whole story. US was about to, or do intervene via Israel, over Iranian territory, for the same you say here: A probable attack from Iran could endanger the hegemony of the imperialist control of the US-Israel axis and the EU in the Middle East.
--- End quote ---
Dude, Iran is being run by a crazy bastard who openly talks about wiping out the entire population of Israel. You're saying we should let him get nukes and you're talking as if the Israel was "evil". That's really messed up. Besides, if the US-Israel axis really had imperial ambitions, they could just level every single country they don't like Wehrmacht-style. They do have the military capability for that. Somehow, I don't see them doing that. Somehow most of their military actions in the region resemble police work more than they resemble waging a conventional war. But, yeah, they're all evil childkilling rapists and the insurgents are somehow A-ok even though they're killing civillians en-masse in their terrorist attacks. That's quite hypocritical of you, wouldn't you say?
--- Quote from: cogliostro on May 02, 2011, 08:48:56 pm ---If you point out to their culture, then you should leave them and not try to change what they are, or has been since a long time ago. If the US is wanting to be the Hero, they are remaining as dominator instead. If they would like to change some way of life on your country, then all would not be agree. Put yourself in their place.
--- End quote ---
If it really was their culture, they wouldn't be fighting a war against the extremists to defend their rights. Not all Afghans are backwards-thinking chauvinistic bastards, it's just that the Taliban are. If by some stroke of misfortune a brutal, mostly foreign dictatorship gained power in my country and started taking away our freedoms and killing people with different beliefs and the US invaded to remove that regime, I'd be fighting side by side with the US troops along with a fair number of my compatriots.
--- Quote from: cogliostro on May 02, 2011, 08:48:56 pm ---I really don't know when Saddam Hussein invade Kuwait, If it was after US turning his back on him, then there is the reason that US has taken place over kuwait. Strategical location.
--- End quote ---
The US never really supported Saddam that much, it's just that they preffered him to the religious fanatics in Iran and when the Iraq-Iran war broke out they supplied Iraq with weapons. The US never has taken over Kuwait, they just defended that country and left - but that's an evil thing to do in your book too, right? ::)
--- Quote from: Mayck on May 02, 2011, 08:56:34 pm ---From what I've heard from one Afghan co-student the Afghans are ofcourse gratefull for getting rid of the Taliban, but they are also pretty pissed about americans not giving a damn about civilian (human-shields) casualties when it comes to artillery strikes against radicals.
--- End quote ---
If they really didn't give a damn they'd have completely different ROE. It's war, sadly mistakes do happen and people die - especially when one side doesn't care about civillian casualties at all, and I'm not talking NATO here.
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