Other > Off-topic discussions
how many fonline people believes in church
Solar:
--- Quote from: JovankaB on April 02, 2011, 04:56:32 pm ---People who praise reason should do better than pasting some stupid demotivators that have nothing to do with reality. An image suggesting that there was nothing going on for 1000 years is simply false. Besides, most scholars in medieval period were clergymen, especially early on and actually they were the ones who saved a lot of Greek works. "Dark ages" is just a propaganda term, no serious historian use it anymore (at least not in such negative context).
There was many cleric–scientists who contributed greatly to the science. A name like Copernicus, does it ring a bell? I will leave you with a homework - find the other. Being atheist doesn't mean you are automatically smart. And it doesn't mean that you can't be fanatical when arguing with others.
I'm agnostic and I don't give a damn what you believe or disbelieve in :)
--- End quote ---
--- Quote ---Galileo's championing of Copernicanism was controversial within his lifetime, when a large majority of philosophers and astronomers still subscribed to the geocentric view that the Earth is at the centre of the universe. After 1610, when he began publicly supporting the heliocentric view, which placed the Sun at the centre of the universe, he met with bitter opposition from some philosophers and clerics, and two of the latter eventually denounced him to the Roman Inquisition early in 1615. In February 1616, although he had been cleared of any offence, the Catholic Church nevertheless condemned heliocentrism as "false and contrary to Scripture",[10] and Galileo was warned to abandon his support for it—which he promised to do. When he later defended his views in his most famous work, Dialogue Concerning the Two Chief World Systems, published in 1632, he was tried by the Inquisition, found "vehemently suspect of heresy", forced to recant, and spent the rest of his life under house arrest
--- End quote ---
It's not quite so simple as the picture, but any system which promotes "belief" over evidence has a negative effect on human progress. Just as stem cell research suffered when they had an idiot in the whitehouse.
JovankaB:
I don't think Joseph Stalin contributed to the mankind greatly either. It is not a problem with beliefs in god. It's a problem with a system based on monopoly of violence (government), where people in power can tell you what you can or cannot do, or you will be shot or thrown into a jail. For example, if you think stem cell research is unethical, you shouldn't be forced to pay for the research (which many christians may be, via taxes).
It would be weird if there would be no examples of evil people in almost 2000 years old, powerful organization.
Solar:
A good example to pick. Totalitarianism and religion have many things in common. Outside of religion treating something made up as fact and totalitarianism treating an opinion as fact ... theres not much difference.
Science's great ability is that it accepts the possibility even the most fundamental part of it could be completely wrong and changes based upon something being proven to be better. That's how progress is made.
Already having the "answer" is the way to halt progress.
JustGreat:
--- Quote from: JovankaB on April 02, 2011, 04:56:32 pm ---There was many cleric–scientists who contributed greatly to the science.
--- End quote ---
This is true, but I don't understand why you brought Copernicus into this since according to the poster Crazy showed, the black was before Copernicus was born.
--- Quote from: Crazy on April 01, 2011, 06:02:16 pm ---So, I prefer the science way.
(Science vs. Faith picture)
--- End quote ---
I can tell you are not doing any scientific work and your knowledge about science is superfluous. What you posted was an ideal was of how science should work, but it rarely does. (e.g using hydrodynamic equations to explain quark gluon plasma, though it is not truly a plasma, but it is easier to model this way)
--- Quote from: Solar on April 02, 2011, 05:47:59 pm ---but any system which promotes "belief" over evidence has a negative effect on human progress.
--- End quote ---
While this is true for organized religions, who use belief to counter progress, it is hardly true in academia, where belief is sometimes just as strong as evidence. (eg. absolute relativity by Lorentz, and general relativity by Einstein)
--- Quote from: JovankaB on April 02, 2011, 06:12:59 pm ---It is not a problem with beliefs in god. It's a problem with a system based on monopoly of violence (government), where people in power can tell you what you can or cannot do, or you will be shot or thrown into a jail. For example, if you think stem cell research is unethical, you shouldn't be forced to pay for the research (which many christians may be, via taxes).
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I don't know how it is in Europe (though I know it is less religious than the US) but in the US churches are tax exempt, and there are even people who create religions just so they don't have to pay taxes. Taxes are a tricky subject, but I don't think using belief should be a way to piggyback out of it.
--- Quote from: Solar on April 02, 2011, 06:53:00 pm ---Science's great ability is that it accepts the possibility even the most fundamental part of it could be completely wrong and changes based upon something being proven to be better. That's how progress is made.
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You will be surprised how untrue this is. (There is a reason PRL has a section D)
Anyway, what I am trying to say is, don't think science is the opposite of religion, both have their beliefs. :P
Floodnik:
--- Quote from: Solar on April 02, 2011, 05:47:59 pm ---any system which promotes "belief" over evidence has a negative effect on human progress.
--- End quote ---
Indeed, I fully agree. But as I said, we don't promote belief over evidence anymore.
Let's talk a little about faith itself, not about church and its effects.
You see, there is no evidence that God exists(for you), but there is also no evidence that God doesn't exist. That's why believing in Him is nothing wrong, and has no negative effect :)
About believing. Let's take someone who's raised in Catholicism.
First, he's a child. His parents told him that God exists, loves him but can also punish. "You must go to church!" they said. The kid starts to believe in God. Blindly. His faith is there just because his authorities, his parents told him.
Then, he grows up. He begins to understand. He must take a path.
- God doesn't exist.
1. Now he could think that who believes in God is dumb, mad etc. He is an enemy to any system of belief. God was nothing more than a tooth fairy. He was there just to help parents grow up the kid, to scare him when he doesn't obey/cheer him up when something bad happens.
2. Or he could think, that everyone should believe what he wants to believe. One isn't negative towards people who have faith.
I. myself, have much respect for those who took the second option.
Let's move on.
- "God exists"
But just because it's right to say so.
For me, these are the kind of people whose faith didn't grow up. The man could be still going to church, he could get a church wedding. He would "believe". But the truth is, he doesn't care about God and his faith.
- God does exist.
Now I'm thinking of people who really deeply believe, and God is present in their lives. I know, noone is perfect, they still commit sins - and sins lengthen the distance between God and man. But they want to live in harmony with Him.
I believe that I belong to the third group.
You see, with age, my faith was getting deeper and it still is. I started experiencing God. Now it isn't just a blind faith, now I know that He is there, all around us. I can feel it.
What I am saying is very personal. But well, that is what I believe in :)
I'm just hoping that you will start seeking Him. Not that you become a Christian instantly. Maybe go to church. Just try to look around. It's never too late.
And about Church - as the organization. It's created to help people in their relationship with God. There's been things that Church did wrong. Like blindly killing people, just because they thought another way. Using its power to raise money. But it is now changing. People like John Paul II - they are just proving that. Church is fine for me :)
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