Other > Suggestions
"Realtume Rounds Based" Combat
JustGreat:
--- Quote from: Doctor Eex on March 18, 2011, 01:48:43 PM ---What is already discussed:
1) Fonline aspects (SPECIAL, AP, perks, interface and whatever) is not so great for RT. Many people love this game and hate RT. Because it's:
a)require mouse skills - to click exactly on running target
b)looks like CS 2D
c)it's pretty uncomfortable to reload, change weapon, use chems with current interface.
d)not so rich tactics. Run, 2 bursts, run-n-hide, reload, use SS and repeat.
2) Classic TB is bad bad idea for multi-player PVP. More players - more time wasted.
30 secs for 1 player. Assume we have 20vs20 fight - 40x30 = 1200 seconds. 20 minutes. And whole town is frozen during that (remember NCR TB fun??)
Was offered several times - system with TB plannig, then play action after end turn. let's say 30 sec for plannig - and few sec to play all actions. Nice idea, but requires HUGE engine change, so hardly possible.
--- End quote ---
All true,we need a more tactical combat system, but I doubt it can ever work in TB, or even with this suggestion (as was already explained by Crazy).
--- Quote from: Doctor Eex on March 18, 2011, 01:48:43 PM ---Honestly - it's ridiculous that 1AG bruiser char as mobile in combat as 10AG jet junkie.
--- End quote ---
Not quite, the 10AG character has a faster AP regeneration, and can "do more" with his AP.
I know it was previously suggested, but maybe have RT combat slowed down, and implement AP usage for movement.
Doctor Eex:
First of all, thanks to all who participating in discussion. Because TOGETHER we can develop very interesting combat system.
--- Quote ---All true,we need a more tactical combat system, but I doubt it can ever work in TB, or even with this suggestion (as was already explained by Crazy).
--- End quote ---
With all respect, Crazy did not mention anything that makes such system impossible. Let me explain it further.
--- Quote ---Not quite, the 10AG character has a faster AP regeneration, and can "do more" with his AP.
--- End quote ---
Yes, but it as agile as 1AG bruiser, considering MOVEMENT
--- Quote ---in your suggestion running snipers (who dont need such mobility) suffers, while BG/SG does not (and they are running ones), which is totally nonsense, as it in fact does nothing but anger you...
--- End quote ---
Snipers already has their advantages - deadly on long range, pretty nice chance to DISABLE BG.
And in any tactics snipers need to be covered or unreached by enemy infantry. \
--- Quote ---That would give both movements advantage and disadvantage.
--- End quote ---
Running and walking will have disadvantage - see AC bonus and CtH penalty.
Not sure still I got your point, appreciate if you will explain it further. Thank you.
--- Quote ---They are not in combat, nobody can shoot them... Or all map is in combat every time someone shoot? NCR will be soooo good....
--- End quote ---
--- Quote ---And what you do about the guy not in combat mode who rush you to burst you at point Blank? Or once all ennemies snipers are in combat and spent their AP, you make your big gun rush them, and burst as soon they're in range.
--- End quote ---
Crazy, thank you for really GOOD questions. Because answering these smart questions we can figure out perfectly interesting combat system.
Let me explain.
First of all, not all the map at combat once somebody shot.
Second, Round timing is 1 for all combat participants. I think 1 timer for all location, to make sure everybody's AP regeneration is synchronized and happens according to sequence.
Third, when entering combat, your BG will not shoot immediately. You will enter combat mode and with beginning of new round you will gain your AP, with delay according to your sequence. And by the way, if you are not in combat yet, you don't know when exactly those bunch of sniper will shoot, as you don't see yet the timer.
4th, better not leave bunch of snipers uncovered! (tactics, man!...)
By the way, I believe 30 sec will be unnecessary, may be 20 or 25 sec per round will be enough.
As for running in combat, we can go even further! We can limit running, according to Char characteristics. I think running capability should depend on ST.
I got 2 ideas how to do that:
1)If you are carring more that 50% of your capacity, you cannot run. Makes sense. ST will be more important for STORMTROOPERS.
OR
2)Number of HEX you can run in combat is 2xST. So 1ST jet junkie sniper 12 AP can use runnig only for 2 hex (and get 2 bonus move).
Maximum movement for him = 2run+2bonus move for that + 10 AP = 14
BG 7 ST 12AP
Maximum movement for him = (7x2=14) 12run+12bonus move for that = 24
Imagine this choices -
more EN or runnig in combat?
More AP or better Sequence?
Also, would be cool to upgrade Dodge perk, giving +10 to AC instead.
So there will damagers. Not so fast in movement, but high seq, brd and so on. And tanks, HP, good runnig, dodging.
More variety to build, combat more tactical.
And this will add also TIMING aspect to your tactics
When to move or shoot? as soon as i got my AP. or to wait a bit, to make sure enemy moved and I can run safe?
--- Quote ---You would better make TB simultaneous rather than breaking RT.
--- End quote ---
WAY BETTER TO HAVE 1 COMBAT SYSTEM SUITABLE FOR ALL - TC, farming whatever.
And please, don't be so pessimistic about implementing new combat system. I think there's a lot of PVPer on server.
May be someone tired of having the same RT combats and want to have more depth in build and diverse tactics in combat?
And if this combat system is smart as TB and almost as fast as RT?
Together we can design all the details and come to developers with true tactical combat system. Thank you for your attention.
pistacja:
I'd really love to see a change in RT combat. What we have now is very... em... silly.
30sec per turn is a bit much, 20 should do. Take a gunner or sniper that shoot once per turn, that's 2sec of clicking and 28 of waiting. A turn should be: time to walk 14 hex (14 ap is max?)+sequence delay (the delay betwen the max and min seq. chars)+5sec (for lag and planing).
The walking/runing based on strength is good and bad at the same time. A BG with a ton of ammo and heavy gear should be the fastes? I don't think so.
How will it work with the first shot? The one to fire first is the one to win in many situations, and the first shot is 'out of combat'.
Doctor Eex:
Yes, 20 sec should be enough...
--- Quote ---How will it work with the first shot? The one to fire first is the one to win in many situations, and the first shot is 'out of combat'.
--- End quote ---
Let's assume there's no fight on location yet. A wants to kill B to take his gecko pelts.
Mister A is typical 2xBRD 12 AP BG and have not read last change log. He does not know that RT and TB is now "RT TB"
He run to burst at point blank mister B. Mister B is kamikadze smg burster.
Mister A comes to 0 distance and press FIRE!!! FIRE!!! FIRE!!!. But! He does not do burst, he just start 1 round and wait for his AP to come with delay according to seq. Mister B has higher seq and burst first.
Mister A should open combat from distance more then 20 to have advantage.
So this is solution for "first burst" Whaen you're not in combat, you don't shoot. You actually enter the combat and then act in order according to sequence.
Crazy:
--- Quote from: Doctor Eex on March 21, 2011, 08:20:40 AM ---Second, Round timing is 1 for all combat participants. I think 1 timer for all location, to make sure everybody's AP regeneration is synchronized and happens according to sequence.
Third, when entering combat, your BG will not shoot immediately. You will enter combat mode and with beginning of new round you will gain your AP, with delay according to your sequence. And by the way, if you are not in combat yet, you don't know when exactly those bunch of sniper will shoot, as you don't see yet the timer.
--- End quote ---
Your friends in combat know exactly the timer, and tell it to you. And even if you don't burst the point blank this turn, you go to 1 hex, enter in combat... And at the beginning of new turn, burst (extreme situation, only be at range against snipers with short range DPS like plasma tank is enough to rampage) .
--- Quote from: Doctor Eex on March 21, 2011, 08:20:40 AM ---4th, better not leave bunch of snipers uncovered! (tactics, man!...)
--- End quote ---
So, do you mean a sniper line in open field with ennemy in front of them won't have any chance without tons of short range support? Nice tactic.
--- Quote from: Doctor Eex on March 21, 2011, 08:20:40 AM ---By the way, I believe 30 sec will be unnecessary, may be 20 or 25 sec per round will be enough.
--- End quote ---
Will still be slow as hell for me.
--- Quote from: Doctor Eex on March 21, 2011, 08:20:40 AM ---As for running in combat, we can go even further! We can limit running, according to Char characteristics. I think running capability should depend on ST.
I got 2 ideas how to do that:
--- End quote ---
ATM movements is one of the most important thing in tactic. You will totally destroy that by replacing tactic by build. A team not able to move together is terrible.
--- Quote from: Doctor Eex on March 21, 2011, 08:20:40 AM ---Imagine this choices -
--- End quote ---
more EN or more AP?
More AP or more crit chance?
Resistance or damage?
There are already choices, and Solar promised us much more.
--- Quote from: Doctor Eex on March 21, 2011, 08:20:40 AM ---WAY BETTER TO HAVE 1 COMBAT SYSTEM SUITABLE FOR ALL - TC, farming whatever.
--- End quote ---
Like said, doesn't suit at all for TC. Farming would be awfully slow too though.
--- Quote from: Doctor Eex on March 21, 2011, 08:20:40 AM ---And please, don't be so pessimistic about implementing new combat system. I think there's a lot of PVPer on server.
May be someone tired of having the same RT combats and want to have more depth in build and diverse tactics in combat?
And if this combat system is smart as TB and almost as fast as RT?
Together we can design all the details and come to developers with true tactical combat system. Thank you for your attention.
--- End quote ---
I really think it won't be good, and it will take a hell of time to code...
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