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[Badger]

Speaking of the Fallout char system, is merging some of the skills completely out of the question? Taking Traps for example, could that not just be named UNUSED on character creation, and the four or five instances of it being used ingame switched over to Throwing? I hate Traps. Its crappiness bugs me no end.

[Surf]

I use it in a few skillchecks, so please do not move it out.   

[Solar]

I think we will more likely try to make every skill at least a little useful, rather than remove it.

Traps should be useful in domination mode, at least for one member of each team.

[Crazy]

I think we will more likely try to make every skill at least a little useful, rather than remove it.

Traps should be useful in domination mode, at least for one member of each team.

This C4 sneaker build wich require insane player skill as well as good build but can be very effective will finally come back?

[Solar]

Well, there will be c4 .... there will be sneaking .... so I guess so

[avv]

The difficulty comes in that if you just increase potential you end up with clone chars everywhere as they are able to do everything. You can increase skill points and rather than diversify their char with the extra freedom, people will take the smaller boost to combat potential - and the gap between "normal" chars and a power build just increases

It's not that problematic if one char can do many things, it doesn't damage the roleplay concept. Roleplay is about who you are and who your friends and enemies are.

[Solar]

It's not that problematic if one char can do many things, it doesn't damage the roleplay concept. Roleplay is about who you are and who your friends and enemies are.

I mean in terms of combat, rather than soft skills. If you have many levels, so your good perks:available perk slots ratio is close to 1:1 AND you have so many skill points that you can be great at first aid, be great at sneaking, always be 95% to hit in any situation, etc- then you get chars which are near identical in terms of their combat role and team dynamics means little.

[avv]

I mean in terms of combat, rather than soft skills. If you have many levels, so your good perks:available perk slots ratio is close to 1:1 AND you have so many skill points that you can be great at first aid, be great at sneaking, always be 95% to hit in any situation, etc- then you get chars which are near identical in terms of their combat role and team dynamics means little.

The game doesn't have to come to the point where everyone has so many skillpoints and perk slots that builds become too similar. The point was that chars could have more stuff available for them by default. For example everyone could be able to sneak, why not? It's just their success would mainly come from how they act ingame (terrain usage, equipment, expecting enemy movements), rather than the skill%. Skill% would only unlock more perks and be used against npcs and quests. This way there's more to do for everyone, and less reasons to make a minmaxed alt for every task, but sneaker is still a sneaker due to his perk and equipment choices. 

[Crazy]

The game doesn't have to come to the point where everyone has so many skillpoints and perk slots that builds become too similar. The point was that chars could have more stuff available for them by default. For example everyone could be able to sneak, why not? It's just their success would mainly come from how they act ingame (terrain usage, equipment, expecting enemy movements), rather than the skill%. Skill% would only unlock more perks and be used against npcs and quests. This way there's more to do for everyone, and less reasons to make a minmaxed alt for every task, but sneaker is still a sneaker due to his perk and equipment choices. 

He have a point. You can have the skill, but you have not so many perks, and many are great for one weapon and useless for another. And in combat situation, you will have to make choice by taking different equipements. You can't tank and sneak at same time, cause the BA and the plasma rifle won't allow it.

[Solar]

Sure, that works because we have a limit and its not just a limitless system. So you only have those 7 perks (or 8 or 9 or whatever we use post wipe) and you can't just build an alround char.

Hopefully we have many good perks after the next wipe, so we have a good ratio of slots:options.


As for sneak working for everyone, I don't agree it should work for everyone independent of skill. I do like the idea of situationally boosting sneak though ... for night time, skulking next to walls, etc ... and for that to make having mediocre sneak worthwhile and having a better sneak allows you more freedom. This mostly needs engine changes for us to be able to do it, so it might take a while.

[avv]

As for sneak working for everyone, I don't agree it should work for everyone independent of skill. I do like the idea of situationally boosting sneak though ... for night time, skulking next to walls, etc ... and for that to make having mediocre sneak worthwhile and having a better sneak allows you more freedom. This mostly needs engine changes for us to be able to do it, so it might take a while.

Envoremental boosts to sneak are big plus. Everything enviromental should be encouraged, rewarding players from searching and utilizing useful benefits from their surroundings is very good gameplay.

The biggest problem with sneak right now is that it has to be incredibly high to be useful. And when it's incredibly high, it's also incredible effective. Most sneakers I encounter aren't revealed until they are 5-3hex away from me (PE7) and I can't do anything to spot them easier, I'm stuck with my PE. But whereas it's very high and useful, it also gibs your char being unable to do anything but sneak and shoot. Playing a sneaker as solo would be awful due to its limited abilities so sneakers only exist because of support-alts allow it.

So yeh, medicore sneak could indeed be more useful. Just think of outdoorsman, doc, FA and throwing. They all become useful around 100%. FA is even always useful no matter the skill%. But then may come the situation that medicore sneak becomes "must" skill the same way fa and doc kinda are already for most pvp builds. So instead of fa, doc and gunskill it's gonna be doc, sneak and gunskill. Fa is replaced with superstims.

[Crazy]

Envoremental boosts to sneak are big plus. Everything enviromental should be encouraged, rewarding players from searching and utilizing useful benefits from their surroundings is very good gameplay.

I agree. Actually, I think it's written in the wiki that standing near scenery object give sneak bonus. Is that working? What is exactly a scenery object? Everything which block path but not FOV?

The biggest problem with sneak right now is that it has to be incredibly high to be useful. And when it's incredibly high, it's also incredible effective. Most sneakers I encounter aren't revealed until they are 5-3hex away from me (PE7) and I can't do anything to spot them easier, I'm stuck with my PE. But whereas it's very high and useful, it also gibs your char being unable to do anything but sneak and shoot. Playing a sneaker as solo would be awful due to its limited abilities so sneakers only exist because of support-alts allow it.

I don't agree it's incredibly effective. During TC, our sneak scouts (with 330 sneak) are often spotted and killed by snipers (or high PE ennemy sneaks). 12 PE sniper see them at somethink like 23 hex in front side.
Even with my plasma tank (low PE, 5), I can spot some at 8/10 hex from front.

So yeh, medicore sneak could indeed be more useful. Just think of outdoorsman, doc, FA and throwing. They all become useful around 100%. FA is even always useful no matter the skill%. But then may come the situation that medicore sneak becomes "must" skill the same way fa and doc kinda are already for most pvp builds. So instead of fa, doc and gunskill it's gonna be doc, sneak and gunskill. Fa is replaced with superstims.

I guess average sneak could become usefull when combined with stealth boy/scenery objects/night situation.

[avv]

I don't agree it's incredibly effective. During TC, our sneak scouts (with 330 sneak) are often spotted and killed by snipers (or high PE ennemy sneaks). 12 PE sniper see them at somethink like 23 hex in front side.
Even with my plasma tank (low PE, 5), I can spot some at 8/10 hex from front.

Looks like we got varying experiences. To me sneakers just seem to pop out of nowhere most of the time and they are pretty hard to target due to the blinking. It's true that 12PE snipers can spot them, but not everybody plays a PE12 char.

I guess average sneak could become usefull when combined with stealth boy/scenery objects/night situation.

By all means. Walking will receive a purpose if this happens, because not everyone will take silent running.