Other > Suggestions
Town Control
vilaz:
--- Quote from: Nice_Boat on February 07, 2011, 01:17:49 PM ---Well yeah, but... no ;D I mean anti-alt would be great, but stuff like FM factions and faction events can be done without it being in place. Actually in player on player interaction, aside from TC combat, alting is not a problem for the reasons mentioned above - players act on their own reputation and their own personality, not on the "reputation" of their alt.
--- End quote ---
Yup! Player works for hes own but You can become another "player" just by few clicks. You can have two alts: Troll character - happy suicide bomber and Serious RPG char/Serious PvP char - which is officially used by this one certain player so we Know that Vilaz = Joggler (some trader from North) AND Vilaz = Broken (This asshole with bb gun and mauser who break bones all around wasteland). Both of them should work on Your (player) reputation not only mr.GoodGuy (RPG)/mr.Dread&Doom (PvP)
Damn... it's whole duality of FOnline (ying&yang) ...where was my point? Nah... nevermind I'm going back to books :>
avv:
Read the whole thread (skipped nonsense egoOT).
Boat are you sure GM is absolutely required to make players roleplay? Can't the mechanics just encourage players into such activity that even when they are powergaming to the fullest, they still look like being part of the wasteland, roleplaying without actually knowing it. You can't force players into thinking along with the fallout storyline but you can encourage them to look like they are part of it.
Setting a simple goal required for everyone would be a start. You can't get players motivated if they don't really need anything. You told that players should be rewarded with cool hightech stuff. No APA or gauss will make someone move his ass if he's not interested in pvp related stuff or even fighting, we got such players and it's not a sin to hate fighting. It's actually more credible behaviour than desiring to fight all the time.
Basically everything is explained here. It has some stuff to read but I read your texts so you owe me 8)
Nice_Boat:
--- Quote from: avv on February 07, 2011, 03:00:13 PM ---Read the whole thread (skipped nonsense egoOT).
Boat are you sure GM is absolutely required to make players roleplay? Can't the mechanics just encourage players into such activity that even when they are powergaming to the fullest, they still look like being part of the wasteland, roleplaying without actually knowing it. You can't force players into thinking along with the fallout storyline but you can encourage them to look like they are part of it.
--- End quote ---
The point about "roleplaying even when powergaming to the fullest" is a valid one and I agree with all my heart. Actually, that's about the only thing you can do in an open server with no rules as far as code of conduct or behaving out of character is concerned. The problem is no ammount of mechanics is going to force that, because acting like a person inhabiting the game world instead of acting like an efficient killing/crafting machine is something quite separate from them. I mean yeah, you can introduce the necessity to fulfill some mechanical goals like getting water, food, even more complicated stuff - but at the end of the day it results in people doing it in the most efficient way possible, avoiding interaction with each other because everyone is a potential threat to everyone else. You had examples of how it plays out in crafting, in mining, in doing NPC quests.
I would say that what makes a person roleplay is not a set of elaborate mechanics, but rather players interacting with other players outside of combat. Right now the only incentives to act like that in macro scale are trade and gang politics. Both have their own "narrative" - trade has people with established reputation, good buyers, good suppliers - it's almost like a meta-community. TC politics are the heart of this server right now and their narrative is even more complicated - you have people doublecrossing each other, people compromising over alliances, uneasy truces, espionage, propaganda, well-known fighters, even a bit of spontaneous artwork - generally good, very creative stuff. That's about as good as roleplaying without GMs is going to get - and some people might say that it's good enough.
The problem here, however, is the lack of a storyline. Gangs, despite all the complexity of TC politics, work to fulfill a set of repetitive goals - take control of the towns, win some battles, gain prestige, make propaganda, recruit more people, take care of the supplies, rinse and repeat. It's all being done in a mechanical manner because TC itself is a simple script mechanism lacking any real context except some aniomosity and sympathies forged in the community during months of gameplay. You can't really accuse people of acting in a robotic manner if all they're doing is adapting to a clockwork-like mechanism. The only moment this cycle stops on its own for a while is immediately after the wipe, when people have to do something a bit different and not as repetitive to set their powerbase up (and unsurprisingly, most players consider the beginning of every 2238 session the best part of the overall experience).
Introducing NPC-based FM factions with goals differing from all the "standard" gangs is basically breaking up the circle. Suddenly, normal gangs have to start taking the NCR or the Enclave very seriously, because they have the potential to influence their standing. And if NCR and the Enclave are acting more or less in accordance with Fallout lore, they force other players to act like inhabitants of the Fallout world by the very virtue of their existence. If you add gang-related events that have the potential to make a serious impact on the balance of power, the gap between cost-effectiveness of taking robotic action and acting like a wastelander widens even more. And if you coordinate the events and the Faction Masters' goals to link everything into a partially self-writing, partially prescheduled narrative, players stop acting and thinking like robots when playing the game altogether and start acting and thinking like people inhabiting the wastes, just because it gives them more power inside the gameworld. Furthermore, when the narrative is well written and the events and factions' reactions keep being surprising, unpredictable and fresh, every gaming day becomes as exciting as the post-wipe day, or even better.
--- Quote from: avv on February 07, 2011, 03:00:13 PM ---Setting a simple goal required for everyone would be a start. You can't get players motivated if they don't really need anything. You told that players should be rewarded with cool hightech stuff. No APA or gauss will make someone move his ass if he's not interested in pvp related stuff or even fighting, we got such players and it's not a sin to hate fighting. It's actually more credible behaviour than desiring to fight all the time.
--- End quote ---
Agreed, and that's why faction-related storylines should include politics, trade, persuasion etc... and for players who are not interested in gangs, people like Surf-Solar could carry on with doing their thing, creating small events and breaking up the monothony of day-to-day wasteland experience. The problem of a lack of narrative and robotic nature of the game is equally familiar to loners and gangs, the difference being that you can make all the gangs participate in a TC related storyline while it'd be impossible to create a persistent narrative for loners (every few guys would have to have their own GM which in all honesty would be nuts).
Wichura:
--- Quote from: maszrum on February 07, 2011, 11:04:59 AM ---looks like you still dont get what is all about, actually i can help you.. in polish language.
--- End quote ---
I'm waiting, because you are right - I still don't get your whining about faction name that is oh-so-needed for you.
It's not the first time I'm asking you about it and not the first time you promise me to explain, then do nothing. But, like I said - I can't expect much :>
--- Quote from: maszrum on February 07, 2011, 11:04:59 AM ---maybe you funny traveling theatre troupe can do something more then using sience or some expensive items, giving cars or organising 'fight club' for 10 players.. try organise something for 80 'pvp appes' - this is real challenge
--- End quote ---
In fact, Mr Ape, me and my noobs do something, more or less interesting or fun. We organised "Rescue princess Miriam" small event in our bunker, for 16 or 17 apes and 7 bunker defenders - I give you numbers, because you seem to like them. It was bad prepared, especially the balance of sides, my fault, but as you can see we've tried and did something. However I understand you don't know about it - you personal are not welcomed on any our "event", even the trees chopping competition if we ever do such thing.
What happened with famous Broken Hills Roleplay Project you were involved? Please, don't start this "we need faction name and goddamn devs don't give it to us" shit again here. What was the real cause? Boredom? Other apes?
How to make Teh Ape Event in few steps:
- send global message "cum to V15 naked"
- spawn in hidden location 100 armors, 200 guns, 10000 ammo
- teleport all from V15 to hidden location
- wait 15 minutes
- airstrike hidden location
- send global message "thank you for participating, come again"
Background? Storyline? Who cares about reading anyway.
avv:
--- Quote from: Nice_Boat on February 07, 2011, 04:01:59 PM ---I mean yeah, you can introduce the necessity to fulfill some mechanical goals like getting water, food, even more complicated stuff - but at the end of the day it results in people doing it in the most efficient way possible, avoiding interaction with each other because everyone is a potential threat to everyone else. You had examples of how it plays out in crafting, in mining, in doing NPC quests.
--- End quote ---
The important part of this necessity is that it has to come in par with npc factions and town control. You get water from either npc factions which means you have to obey their rules or from unsafe towns by conquering.
TC is already "balanced" in a way, because it's related what players do to each other so last thing remaining is to decide how npc faction reputation is achieved to maintain water supply.
--- Quote ---I would say that what makes a person roleplay is not a set of elaborate mechanics, but rather players interacting with other players outside of combat. Right now the only incentives to act like that in macro scale are trade and gang politics. Both have their own "narrative" - trade has people with established reputation, good buyers, good suppliers - it's almost like a meta-community. TC politics are the heart of this server right now and their narrative is even more complicated - you have people doublecrossing each other, people compromising over alliances, uneasy truces, espionage, propaganda, well-known fighters, even a bit of spontaneous artwork - generally good, very creative stuff. That's about as good as roleplaying without GMs is going to get - and some people might say that it's good enough.
--- End quote ---
However too much of this happens outside the game world. In addition lots of this happen out of player's own initiative rather than ingame necessity. Players trade out of boredom. Having a constant goal to fuel the interaction wouldn't be bad.
--- Quote ---The problem here, however, is the lack of a storyline. Gangs, despite all the complexity of TC politics, work to fulfill a set of repetitive goals - take control of the towns, win some battles, gain prestige, make propaganda, recruit more people, take care of the supplies, rinse and repeat. It's all being done in a mechanical manner because TC itself is a simple script mechanism lacking any real context except some aniomosity and sympathies forged in the community during months of gameplay. You can't really accuse people of acting in a robotic manner if all they're doing is adapting to a clockwork-like mechanism.
--- End quote ---
Storyline: "survive" should be all thats needed. Having some ever-present menace (dehydration) lurking behind should keep everyone at their toes and constantly looking for ways to keep it away. TC is already player interaction, so there'd have to be a way to increase rep with npc factions only via team work with the other members. This way we have constant player interaction fuelled by game mechanic.
A simple quest example to receive rep in ncr: scout unsafe location x. Come back alive. If a tagged group receives the quest, only one needs to return alive. The location could be either unsafe gathering place or a location where enemy faction can perform a similar quest.
--- Quote ---Introducing NPC-based FM factions with goals differing from all the "standard" gangs is basically breaking up the circle. Suddenly, normal gangs have to start taking the NCR or the Enclave very seriously, because they have the potential to influence their standing. And if NCR and the Enclave are acting more or less in accordance with Fallout lore, they force other players to act like inhabitants of the Fallout world by the very virtue of their existence. If you add gang-related events that have the potential to make a serious impact on the balance of power, the gap between cost-effectiveness of taking robotic action and acting like a wastelander widens even more. And if you coordinate the events and the Faction Masters' goals to link everything into a partially self-writing, partially prescheduled narrative, players stop acting and thinking like robots when playing the game altogether and start acting and thinking like people inhabiting the wastes, just because it gives them more power inside the gameworld. Furthermore, when the narrative is well written and the events and factions' reactions keep being surprising, unpredictable and fresh, every gaming day becomes as exciting as the post-wipe day, or even better.
--- End quote ---
It is doubtful if you can force someone to do something in fonline. Players are immune to basically all natural threats like fear of death so it's hard to force them to act naturally.
This demands lot of work and interest from the narrative writer. It'd obviously be totally awesome if it worked. Having a gm to keep up our interest is unreliable but provides excitement in burst-manner. However mechanical encouragement offers long-term, reliable and constant motivation. Then again they don't capsize each other.
--- Quote ---Agreed, and that's why faction-related storylines should include politics, trade, persuasion etc... and for players who are not interested in gangs, people like Surf-Solar could carry on with doing their thing, creating small events and breaking up the monothony of day-to-day wasteland experience. The problem of a lack of narrative and robotic nature of the game is equally familiar to loners and gangs, the difference being that you can make all the gangs participate in a TC related storyline while it'd be impossible to create a persistent narrative for loners (every few guys would have to have their own GM which in all honesty would be nuts).
--- End quote ---
What's still problematic with these storylines and background story based encouragements is that they don't necessarily barge in your tent and demand you to do something. I've never participated in an event because they are out of the gameworld occasions.
An ever present common goal could work as global balancer for player activity. There's got to be something that basically everything you do boils down to. Currently players reason their actions with real world excuses like excitement and the lulz. However the reasons for actions have to result from ingame encouragements like maintaining water supply.
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