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Author Topic: How to make Sequence affect RT... again.  (Read 2479 times)

How to make Sequence affect RT... again.
« on: December 20, 2010, 11:06:31 am »

May be hard to implement, but easy to understand suggestion without wierd "rounds" or global turns or something.
For example you need 5.00 seconds to restore AP from 0% to 100%, but you can do that by different ways!

Sequence means reaction of a character, how he's fast in starting actions... bla bla bla, who cares what's sequence anyway, so it'll work like that:
You're blind moron with 1 PE and minimal possible sequence: 2, name is Character A.
He's 10 PE attentive kamikaze, who, for some crazy reason, took all possible sequence perks. 31 sequence, Character B.
Both, Character A and B, will have full ammount of AP from 0 to thier max AP in 5 seconds. But than more sequence you have than faster it replenish at the start and slower in the end, it'll look like this:


This way you can see that low sequence character will regen AP slower than high sequence at the start, but later, when he'll have =>50% he'll regen AP faster to compinsate it.
It'll make Earlier Sequence perk useful, the same about Kamikaze trait.
Fast Shots trait users will have an advantage with higher sequence because of low AP per shot usage, making this class more useful than now.
If say in words:
1)
Character A will have only 2 sequence, for example he has 10 AP.
He shots you twice in the head with a pistol, now he has 0 AP.
In the same time Character B, who has 31 sequence have the same ammount of AP and did the same.
In 1 second A will have almost... 1 AP, so still 0 APs, while B will have 3 AP already! (don't worry, it's a big sacrifice to take x3 earlier sequence perks so 31 sequence isn't reasonable...)
In 2 seconds A will have 2 APs, B will have 5 APs.
In 3 seconds A will have 3 APs, B will have 8 APs.
In 4 seconds A will have 6 APs, B will have 9 APs.
In 5 seconds A and B will have 10 APs.
2)
Character A is smart, he knows that if he'll lose all APs he'll restore it slowly, so he shots B's head only once!
Character B is smart too, so he shots his head twice!
In this case high sequence allows you to have less unspent APs to use your character in combat properly, while low AP forces you to leave some APs.
In this way:
A shot only once, he has 5 APs. it's 50% of his APs, so it's like starts from 2.5th second:
In 1 second A will have ~6 APs, B will have 3 APs.
In 2 seconds A will have ~9 APs, B will have 5 APs.
In between of 2 and 3 seconds A will have 10 APs.
In 3 seconds A will still have 10 APs, B will have 8 APs.
In 4 seconds A will still have 10 APs, B will have 9 APs.
In 5 seconds A and B will have 10 APs.

Well.. it's some kind of suggestion.
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avv

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Re: How to make Sequence affect RT... again.
« Reply #1 on: December 20, 2010, 11:56:18 am »

Ok you've obviously thought something out. I'm just afraid to see PE10 kamikaze-jet snipers spamming headshots.

Fast Shots trait users will have an advantage with higher sequence because of low AP per shot usage, making this class more useful than now.
If say in words:

Unless you can provide some dps statistics, the fact remains that high spike damage is more effective than many less effective attacks. If you get one-shotted by big gun or receive high dmg knockout shot in the head, being able to shoot single shots fast is no use. It's rather problematic that everyone starts combat with full ap and is able to deliver high ap cost attacks instantly.
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Lordus

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Re: How to make Sequence affect RT... again.
« Reply #2 on: December 20, 2010, 12:35:56 pm »

 Sequence is passive ability derived from special, am i right? Its purpose was to choose which side will start combat in turn based mode, if this possibility should not be random. So why add more role to passive atributes? The only reason you want is because this attribute is not usable in real time PvP. But there is no need to use it, because it is real time, not TB.
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Crazy

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Re: How to make Sequence affect RT... again.
« Reply #3 on: December 20, 2010, 01:49:46 pm »

Sequence have nothing to do with AP regen, which is (more logicaly) already affected by max AP. Sequence can't make any sense in RT, it's pure TB concept.
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avv

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Re: How to make Sequence affect RT... again.
« Reply #4 on: December 20, 2010, 04:18:09 pm »

EDIT: but Lordus is right. There's already enough passive features which declare the outcome in pvp. Even though RaRat's formula would have something to do with player's skill, it would still make sequence another attribute to minmax.

Sequence have nothing to do with AP regen, which is (more logicaly) already affected by max AP. Sequence can't make any sense in RT, it's pure TB concept.

Actually it can. It could work as delay for player's actions but only along with auto-target and shoot feature. So if we had similar autoshoot as fallout tactics, sequence would declare who would shoot very first when 2 players with auto-shoot would meet.
« Last Edit: December 20, 2010, 04:22:31 pm by avv »
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Re: How to make Sequence affect RT... again.
« Reply #5 on: December 20, 2010, 05:44:44 pm »

Sequence in TB determinates who will have 1st turn, of couse fights in TB are in encounters... it means PvP sequence works bad there already, because if someone will find your encounter he'll have his turn after current turn cycle anyway.

Ok you've obviously thought something out. I'm just afraid to see PE10 kamikaze-jet snipers spamming headshots.
If you're going to spend lots perks on earlier sequence, then you'll have some... bad sides in your build, also Kamikaze trait should be reworked and should give sequence equal to AC given from AG or the same just AG/2. So you'll need to have 10 PE, 10 AG, kamikaze trait (-1 trait), also -3 perks, and then you'll be able to shoot faster when you'll spend all APs, I don't think you'll have good build.
Also if it'll be combined with "AP spent on running" suggestion, then sequence will be really work like sequence in TB. Because RT ignores moving, that's why everyone have full AP at start of battle, making running consume AP will make sequence work almost in the similar way like in TB. Also it'll make Bonus Move perk useful as someone suggested to make it leave you atleast with 2 APs (x1 rank) and 4 APs (x2 ranks) while you're running, so you'll have some APs to spend already, so if you'll run, and suddenly you see someone's running and he's very evil, fast sequenced guy can stop, wait some and make 1st shot, while 2nd guy, can do that even faster with bonus move perks, or if he has low sequence, then he better don't stop running and just hide somewhere and regen AP, and be ready, so sequence in this way will make you shoot 1st in that situation, like in TB.
I just want to suggest to make RT more similar to TB. TB-build character will easily dominate RT-build in TB fight, I think RT-build character should have the same thinking about his build in TB, taking into account bonus move/earlier sequence perks and sequence. Also it's too many perks, and you can't take them all, so even if you'll get 31 sequence, you'll pay alot for that.

Edit: removed walls of offtop, it makes text more readable.
« Last Edit: December 21, 2010, 10:33:34 am by RavenousRat »
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Re: How to make Sequence affect RT... again.
« Reply #6 on: December 20, 2010, 05:53:08 pm »

Who thinks RavenousRat should divide his post into points/reformat it totally? Walls of text like these, even if they are smart words, aren't fun to read.
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kraskish

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Re: How to make Sequence affect RT... again.
« Reply #7 on: December 20, 2010, 08:36:37 pm »

Who thinks RavenousRat should divide his post into points/reformat it totally? Walls of text like these, even if they are smart words, aren't fun to read.

He bolded some important words dont u see?
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Re: How to make Sequence affect RT... again.
« Reply #8 on: December 20, 2010, 08:38:30 pm »

Wut...
Ah, yes, you're talking about first post. It is very well formatted. I was talking about his second post here.
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Johnnybravo

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Re: How to make Sequence affect RT... again.
« Reply #9 on: December 21, 2010, 02:27:39 pm »

Sequence rolls order of turns in combat.
Analogy in RT mode would be shortening latent actions, like if you had to wait for shot to go off - sequence would then make that time shorter.
However AP in RT also don't play well enough, at lest I'm not aware if players with higher amount of APs regenerate them faster than others. If not, those points are quite expendable.
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Lordus

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Re: How to make Sequence affect RT... again.
« Reply #10 on: December 21, 2010, 02:32:37 pm »

 Back to topic.

 So your suggestion is nothing more than "hidden" ap recovery bonus. So instead of one value for AP recovery (agility and perks), we will have 2 values. And because of you cannot determine sequence directly (like agility), but it is derived from another special attributes, it will cause "stats derived from stats derived from stats effect", that is not easy to balance.

 Also i wrote up, this feature will not give you some kind of choice in pvp, but it will grant you only another passive ability.

 So i am against this.
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Re: How to make Sequence affect RT... again.
« Reply #11 on: December 21, 2010, 04:09:14 pm »

I'm talking about making RT more similar to TB, of couse it also requres AP spending on running, because it makes different builds acts really by different way in TB and RT,
1) sequence will determinate who will shoot (or something else) 1st if they both were running before,
2) it'll make 2 perks useful which can consume up to 5 perk slots (x3+x2),
3) it'll make instant death more rare,
4) sequence will play role not only in TB, but also RT.
If you want to make your characted based on sequence it means you'll be allowed to run and almost instantly shoot someone, but it'll take alot perk slots leaving your character without some other useful perks.

Without spending APs on running in RT this suggestion will affect only continues fighting, where everyone shot on all APs, and then more sequenced characters can start fighting faster, while lower sequenced need to wait more, but still they both, if they won't spend APs before thier full ammount will have thier max in the same time, so AP regeneration itself won't be changed. High sequence will only allow to you to spend all APs and to operate properly after that, while low sequence will make your character slower, or you'll need to keep your APs in second half, making your character "react slower".
So I'm also suggesting to combine it with APs required for running in RT.
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avv

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Re: How to make Sequence affect RT... again.
« Reply #12 on: December 21, 2010, 04:16:08 pm »

I'm talking about making RT more similar to TB, of couse it also requres AP spending on running, because it makes different builds acts really by different way in TB and RT

Your system for sequence would work really well if running spent aps. In that case low ap single shots could be worth something.
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Re: How to make Sequence affect RT... again.
« Reply #13 on: December 22, 2010, 11:43:50 am »

I am against. It is just too complicated. More mechanisms = more bugs and exploits.
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Re: How to make Sequence affect RT... again.
« Reply #14 on: December 22, 2010, 02:50:00 pm »

Eh? This is pretty simple. And Rat explained it very well.
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