Other > Suggestions
Pickpocketing/Tagging
avv:
--- Quote from: HertogJan on December 22, 2010, 12:43:15 AM ---Protecting your items by avoiding problems is a better solution, especially in the wasteland. Who knows who the thief's friends are and what they can do.
In the wasteland you might be able to walk away from a robber too.
--- End quote ---
Okay let's say everyone is so smart that they just avoid all thieves and never come to safe towns, actually they are so careful that they don't even leave their tents. Are you happy now that you don't have any targets to pickpocket?
Encouraging excessive avoidance of dangers leads to bad gameplay. Players must set to compete against each other, that's exciting.
--- Quote ---The whole discussion is about people harassing others at traders by using or pretending to use the thief skill.
Sometimes it's the thief skill, sometimes it's pure harassment.
--- End quote ---
But it was already agreed that even if the animation was changed, griefers would still use the skill but not take anything. And why does this harassment annoy people? Because they have to run.
It's so damn easy to prevent being stolen from. Simply walk away. How hard can it be?
--- Quote ---Players playing a "good guy" have to accept the fact they're a bit limited in guarded areas as everyone is protected by default and guns are not always allowed.
--- End quote ---
This is something I just disagree. The reason why is that when someone tries to steal, it's basically an invasion to another player's personal space and inventory. In other words a pvp challenge or "you're messing with me" situation. In pvp situations players have to be able to defeat or to be defeated. Victory must be declared by who played most skillfully. The whole scenario lacks the possibility for the thief and his victim to increase their winning chances with skill. This doesn't apply because the chance to get caught is independent on player's actions. Another reason is that thieves cannot be defeated, they can be only avoided which is a draw. The thief can win but the victim cannot. Doesn't sound very fair. How would it feel if in pvp you could only run from your enemy?
HertogJan:
--- Quote from: avv on December 22, 2010, 01:29:26 PM ---Okay let's say everyone is so smart that they just avoid all thieves and never come to safe towns, actually they are so careful that they don't even leave their tents. Are you happy now that you don't have any targets to pickpocket?
Encouraging excessive avoidance of dangers leads to bad gameplay. Players must set to compete against each other, that's exciting.
--- End quote ---
I never said anything about avoiding safe towns, nor did and do I agree to the person who did in this thread or another one about stealing.
Even if everyone stayed in their tents, thieves could steal from npc.
There are plenty of ways to avoid dangers, staying out of NCR bazar at peak hours is 1 of them.
A lot of players avoid excessive dangers like towns controlled by certain gangs, going into certain areas, etc. as they know they'll get raped by other players. Most likely a small group and possibly with mercs. Apparently you're one of the people PKing this way, probably trash talking over the corpse to show you're "hardcore". Most of us don't find that exciting at all.
--- Quote from: avv on December 22, 2010, 01:29:26 PM ---But it was already agreed that even if the animation was changed, griefers would still use the skill but not take anything. And why does this harassment annoy people? Because they have to run.
--- End quote ---
Why should people who use this skill to actually steal suffer because others abuse it?
--- Quote from: avv on December 22, 2010, 01:29:26 PM ---It's so damn easy to prevent being stolen from. Simply walk away. How hard can it be?
--- End quote ---
Quoted something wrong here?
--- Quote from: avv on December 22, 2010, 01:29:26 PM ---This is something I just disagree. The reason why is that when someone tries to steal, it's basically an invasion to another player's personal space and inventory. In other words a pvp challenge or "you're messing with me" situation. In pvp situations players have to be able to defeat or to be defeated. Victory must be declared by who played most skillfully. The whole scenario lacks the possibility for the thief and his victim to increase their winning chances with skill. This doesn't apply because the chance to get caught is independent on player's actions. Another reason is that thieves cannot be defeated, they can be only avoided which is a draw. The thief can win but the victim cannot. Doesn't sound very fair. How would it feel if in pvp you could only run from your enemy?
--- End quote ---
The only challenge there is is for a thief to steal and a none thief to not be stolen from. The way people are voluntarily packed upon eachother at traders and the NCR bazar makes the whole personal space and inventory thing a none issue. There is no challenge, nor a defeat or be defeated issue. Which makes sense as stealing is not a combat skill. As said before, the victim wins by avoiding the steal.
Like a lot of players, I have alts which can't do anything but run in pvp as they're simply not capable to put on much of a fight in pvp. My thief alt is one of them, but my armorer and doctor are too.
Fair? No.
Would I want it to be different? No.
It's a choice in character creation and playing style. Thieves are 1 of many builds and playing styles.
Take your hatred towards grievers out on them and not on actual thieves. Thieves can't help it some impatient piece of (brahmin) shit uses steal to scare you away from a trader. Thieves can't help it that the person you PK uses the steal skill to harass you as a way to take revenge, thieves can't help it ...
avv:
--- Quote from: HertogJan on December 28, 2010, 11:19:03 AM ---I never said anything about avoiding safe towns
--- End quote ---
Really?
--- Quote ---There are plenty of ways to avoid dangers, staying out of NCR bazar at peak hours is 1 of them.
--- End quote ---
--- Quote ---Why should people who use this skill to actually steal suffer because others abuse it?
--- End quote ---
People run away from thieves and abusers alike.
The abuse is only possible because how steal works: someone comes near you and rolls a dice. People are afraid of this dice because they can't fight it.
--- Quote ---The only challenge there is is for a thief to steal and a none thief to not be stolen from. The way people are voluntarily packed upon eachother at traders and the NCR bazar makes the whole personal space and inventory thing a none issue.
--- End quote ---
The personal space is not an issue, but the moment when someone browses my inventory. Anyone can stand next to me if there is assurement he isn't up to something.
--- Quote ---There is no challenge, nor a defeat or be defeated issue. Which makes sense as stealing is not a combat skill. As said before, the victim wins by avoiding the steal.
--- End quote ---
There is always challenge when there's one player who wants something and another who wants the opposite. When there's challenge there is victory and defeat. The settings might be biased towards either side, which in this case is the thieve's side. How can you say it's victory for the victim if he only gets to keep his items? Victory means that winner gets something from the loser, or the loser is put in more miserable state than the winner or the winner gets something and loser gets nothing. The first alternative applies when thief wins: he gets an item from the victim. Decent prize for success. When the victim escapes, he doesn't get anything, neither does the thief lose anything so it's not a victory for the victim. Especially because the thief can just run after the victim forever.
Besides, didn't you mention yourself that you use steal against rednicks and your enemies? So it is a tool that you use to cause troubble to your foes. Sounds like pvp to me. I mentioned that being only able to run away from your foes would be pretty annoying so isn't this happening with thieves right now? They can't fight you but you can "fight" them by taking their stuff.
HertogJan:
--- Quote from: avv on December 28, 2010, 11:57:24 AM ---Really?
--- End quote ---
Really.
--- Quote from: avv on December 28, 2010, 11:57:24 AM ---People run away from thieves and abusers alike.
The abuse is only possible because how steal works: someone comes near you and rolls a dice. People are afraid of this dice because they can't fight it.
--- End quote ---
People run away because they don't know who's the thief and who's the abuser.
If I know someone is using it to harass me, I won't walk away.
With low skill they won't try because they know they'll get shot.
--- Quote from: avv on December 28, 2010, 11:57:24 AM ---The personal space is not an issue, but the moment when someone browses my inventory. Anyone can stand next to me if there is assurement he isn't up to something.
--- End quote ---
And how do you assure that?
It might not be a thief, it could be part of a shoot & loot team.
--- Quote from: avv on December 28, 2010, 11:57:24 AM ---There is always challenge when there's one player who wants something and another who wants the opposite. When there's challenge there is victory and defeat. The settings might be biased towards either side, which in this case is the thieve's side. How can you say it's victory for the victim if he only gets to keep his items? Victory means that winner gets something from the loser, or the loser is put in more miserable state than the winner or the winner gets something and loser gets nothing. The first alternative applies when thief wins: he gets an item from the victim. Decent prize for success. When the victim escapes, he doesn't get anything, neither does the thief lose anything so it's not a victory for the victim. Especially because the thief can just run after the victim forever.
Besides, didn't you mention yourself that you use steal against rednicks and your enemies? So it is a tool that you use to cause troubble to your foes. Sounds like pvp to me. I mentioned that being only able to run away from your foes would be pretty annoying so isn't this happening with thieves right now? They can't fight you but you can "fight" them by taking their stuff.
--- End quote ---
Victory means someone wins, someone loses. That's not about items nor about killing someone.
What the thief loses is time (cooldown) and people know he's a (possible) thief.
This is still about grievers, not about thieves. Again, thieves can't help it people abuse the animation.
I don't use steal against rednecks or enemies, I use it on them.
I choose to steal from people I tagged red for PK, stealing, exploiting, tent following, abuse of the steal skill, misbehaving, abusing shout, ...
It's not to trouble my foes as I use the skill, not abuse it.
It's simple, I get to choose between a red name or a grey name at a trader. The choice is easy. I leave the grey name alone and try to steal from the red name.
Sometimes I'm successful and sometimes my victim runs away.
People run away from thieves. That's how it is. If thieves follow them, they're either stupid or not thieves but people who abuse the steal skill.
I don't get why you think all "problems" should be dealt with by fighting. Walk away a few times and the "thief" gets bored.
avv:
--- Quote from: HertogJan on December 28, 2010, 12:51:59 PM ---With low skill they won't try because they know they'll get shot.
--- End quote ---
But then the abusers would just peek in your inventory without taking anything. This would have the same effect as current abuse.
--- Quote ---And how do you assure that?
--- End quote ---
By having a method to keep an eye on someone and certainly catch him if he tries to steal. How would that differ from running anyway? You can't steal from someone if keeps an eye on you in both cases. The only real difference would be that your char gets caught and unprotected which is only fair.
--- Quote ---It might not be a thief, it could be part of a shoot & loot team.
--- End quote ---
That's another problem entirely.
--- Quote ---Victory means someone wins, someone loses. That's not about items nor about killing someone.
What the thief loses is time (cooldown) and people know he's a (possible) thief.
--- End quote ---
How can you say it's not about items if you are after items while stealing? You want the item, the victim wants to keep it.
The victim loses time also, maybe he was going to finish a deal with npc or player but he had to run away.
Still the victim has to be on his toes all the time, he gets no peace even if he knows who thief is.
In addition the victory conditions aren't fair. The victim cannot put preissure on the thief the same way the thief can do to the victim. Thief can be after you forever but you can't be after him.
--- Quote ---I don't use steal against rednecks or enemies, I use it on them.
--- End quote ---
How's that any differend? You cause them troubble, that's all what counts.
--- Quote ---It's not to trouble my foes as I use the skill, not abuse it.
--- End quote ---
Losing items counts as troubble.
--- Quote ---I leave the grey name alone and try to steal from the red name.
--- End quote ---
It doesn't matter what you do in the end, because there are other thieves with differend motives. By pointing out that you steal from your enemies I tried to explain that stealing is like pvp. You use it to cause troubble to your enemies so it's pvp. And because it is pvp, same rules must apply to it aswell. If you can cause them troubble, they must be allowed to cause troubble to you in the same scenario at the same volume.
--- Quote ---People run away from thieves. That's how it is.
--- End quote ---
It's not up to you to state how things are.
--- Quote ---I don't get why you think all "problems" should be dealt with by fighting.
--- End quote ---
Fighting or competition. That's usually how games solve things to keep everyone happy.
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