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[John Porno]

Edit: The aim of this suggestion is not to nerf avenger or buff lsw, but to bring more diversity to the fonline world concerning the weapon usage. /edit

I'm sure it has been done before and I searchbar'd for a bit but didn't find the same thing.

Ok, we all know the Avenger does more damage than the LSW. Against BA it does 20% more damage and against tank builds, the difference is even greater while AP and bursts per mag are the same.

Looking at the ammo each gun uses and the weapons itself, one thing comes to mind: Accuracy.

If .223 ammo has a bigger negative AC modifier and  5mm AP ammo gets a big positive modifier, than the result would be that LSW does more damage on maxrange while the Avenger is the best weapon on mid range.

Depending on the actual numbers, it could render the Avenger to lose it's edge at a distance of around 20 Hex. This would open up new opportunities for other small-to-mid range guns such as P90 and the shotguns, shifting the balance towards the small guns.

In fact, this simple change could establish a third class of weapons besides the usual BG'ers and Snipers: The mid range, giving use to SMG's, Shotguns and Assault rifles during TC and also giving weaker gangs the opportunity to organize useful PvP gear.



These changes would only really affect the use of Avengers during TC. The Assault rifles, that also use 5mm AP have the long range perk to weigh out the AC modifier. As you usually use 5mm JHP during hunts and the range doesn't matter that much, it wouldn't affect PvE at all.
If people spent more points on BG to negate the AC modifier, they would suffer from low FA and DOC, giving them another weak point.
In order to get the maximum amount of damage out of a squad, it would be necessary to use different tactics for LSW and Avenger, rendering "Tactics" and "Skill" more important than just "Gear"

To summarize it, applying an AC modifier to 5mm AP ammo (or altering the accuracy through perks or engine-changes) would split the 35-Hex-BG / 50-Hex-Sniper setup into 20-Hex-SG-Mini / 35-Hex-BG-LSW-RL / 50-Hex-Sniper

Any form of criticism is greatly appreciated

[spike allen]

I agree with john. The changes he suggests are reasonable and would enable to use more complex tactics in TC.

[avv]

Nice to read a message that was written in clear english. You made a good point: lsw should be better at long range and minigun at shorter range. Sounds decent.

Depending on the actual numbers, it could render the Avenger to lose it's edge at a distance of around 20 Hex. This would open up new opportunities for other small-to-mid range guns such as P90 and the shotguns, shifting the balance towards the small guns.

I don't really know what you mean here.
>20 hex is also the effect area of p90 and shotguns. If avenger is already the king there, how are those 2 sg weapons supposed to do anything?

In order to get the maximum amount of damage out of a squad, it would be necessary to use different tactics for LSW and Avenger, rendering "Tactics" and "Skill" more important than just "Gear"

Aren't lsws and avengers the top gear already? And I suppose you expect everyone to have BA and high hps so that these changes would work as you described.

[Crazy]

Oh my god... LSW is already almost better than avenger which have been so much nerfed... You really want to be sure noone will use avenger?

[John Porno]

Thanks for your comment

I don't really know what you mean here.
>20 hex is also the effect area of p90 and shotguns. If avenger is already the king there, how are those 2 sg weapons supposed to do anything?

One difference is, that the minigun would still be able to shoot at a target that is 35hex away, while the shotgunner or submachine gunner has to run.

Plus, if you have a 1on1 battle of Minigun and p90, the AP come into play. The differencel lies in the build here. While all P90 and Rifle users are practically 2Bursters with a 12/65 build, the Minigunner has to decide between being a 2burster or a tank.

In conclusion, there still is a noticeable difference between Mini and P90/Shotguns.

Aren't lsws and avengers the top gear already? And I suppose you expect everyone to have BA and high hps so that these changes would work as you described.

I made every calculation with a 8/40 and a 12/65 target but what I mean here is that currently, Avenger is better than lsw in any given situation. With this new change however, placement and positioning come into play ad get more important than they were before and I'd call that tactics.

@Crazy

Well it could be that the method I used to calculate the damage was wrong. but then again, why are most people referring to Avenger as the best weapon and using it much more often than lsw during tc?

[LeonTheNorse]

In order to get the maximum amount of damage out of a squad, it would be necessary to use different tactics for LSW and Avenger, rendering "Tactics" and "Skill" more important than just "Gear"

Now that is something i would like to see^^ Now its all about who can relog fastest or bring the most muties.(and gear offcourse)

[Crazy]

@Crazy
Well it could be that the method I used to calculate the damage was wrong. but then again, why are most people referring to Avenger as the best weapon and using it much more often than lsw during tc?

Because avenger count as tier 2 weapon for taking control of city, and LSW not... And even with that, I see as much crit LSW build than BRD avenger builds in TC. Because yeah, the regular damage output is a bit better, but you have to sacrify 2 perks for this.

[spike allen]

Well i think the main idea here is not to talk about builds but make a greater variety in weapons used in TC. It would be fun to see people bringing other stuff than few selected guns into battle. This is not Diablo (a good hack and slash) clicking contest this is fallout. But the current situation is:Two guys shot each other  both wearing BA and using Avengers.

[avv]

placement and positioning come into play ad get more important than they were before and I'd call that tactics.

Guess so. I just find it troubbling that there is no other pvp than CA + 3rd tier weapons. You're balancing these guns for combat minmaxed and alt supported chars. Not everybody plays like that nor is able to equip himself with the best gear.

[Haterade]

i like this suggestion

[Fidel Castro]

this is only mi opinion:

the weapons in this game are organized in lvls, an there arent to many weapons of high lvl
you need to change the estability of the guns adding advantages and disadvantages to every weapon and armor.
p.e. actually the best armor is the BA and the other armors have equal characteristics. mi opinion is that you need to change the resistance to (its only an example) energy resistance 5% DT=0 and high resistance to normal, and the combat armor mkII will have high resistance against energy, but low against normal. maybe this works:
again, make every weapon with advantages and disadvantages. like every pvp game has a matchmaking like halo, calofduty, badcompany,etc.

[Lordus]

 I think that devs made a great work with pvp balancing. First big mistake is to make weapon changes without calculation of drugs and chars (special plus skills). Current system is better than it was, even there are a lot of places with a lot of a potential.

 If you compare this with i.e. TLA server, where exist de facto 2 competitive builds only, here you can have cca 10 competitive builds with its own advantages and disadvantages and it is okay..

[Fidel Castro]

its okay, but its not enough, this is a beta you can make changes
and you (and me) are forgeting the purpose of this topic balance lsw and avenger minigun, maybe this game need more changes