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[Gnoff]

Well Solar, it's about that damage boost I am talking about : better to do 150 and 70 than 2 times 90, again 2 times 90... Ennemy have time to heal against avenger, and not against nasty LSW crit.


Btw about crit resistance, I've seen on russin forum a topic talking about AC, which would reduce critical effect/chance instead of ToHit.It was very interesting idea, and it seem logical than a better armor is less likely to failure and weak spot which can cause critical.

AC reducing critical chance would be perfect compared to what it is now because everyone gets their weapon skill to 150-200+ and then AC doesn't matter anymore.

[Signorini]

From long distnac, fn fal is better of avanger...
with fn fall my char without brd give +-80 per shoot, and i can soot 2 times easy with it.

[GaiusCesar]

AC reducing critical chance would be perfect compared to what it is now because everyone gets their weapon skill to 150-200+ and then AC doesn't matter anymore.

 they are preparing traits, perks and even armor changes to make ac more usable

[Solar]

Well Solar, it's about that damage boost I am talking about : better to do 150 and 70 than 2 times 90, again 2 times 90... Ennemy have time to heal against avenger, and not against nasty LSW crit.


Btw about crit resistance, I've seen on russin forum a topic talking about AC, which would reduce critical effect/chance instead of ToHit.It was very interesting idea, and it seem logical than a better armor is less likely to failure and weak spot which can cause critical.

Look up the posts where I fired plenty of shots with Avengers and LSW and pasted the log. Difference between the damage isn't large, it might even be that Avenger's crits were higher.

I don't see any need in throwing away AC just to reduce criticals, it’d be just as easy to make another attribute for an item of armour that could do that and you'd still have the AC

From long distnac, fn fal is better of avanger...
with fn fall my char without brd give +-80 per shoot, and i can soot 2 times easy with it.

Avenger is better DPS.

they are preparing traits, perks and even armor changes to make ac more usable

I expect AC will play a bigger role after the perks are redone, yup

[Crazy]

About the AC: in fact, I don't really see what this atribute represent actually, why a guy in BA would be harder to hit (not hurt) than a guy in leather jacket? Logically, if it's about dodging, it would even be the opposite. The "armor class" make me think about it would represent "fiability" of an armor, representing the number and vulnerability of weak spots, so the resistance against criticals. But well, creating a new atribute for armor is fine too ;p


And about avenger... Well I think I don't explain my point well, tough I agree his pure DPS is better, I still think that it's more effective to make a LSW build.

[Solar]

I understand what you mean, but its not the case.

BRDx2: now avenger
11:08:48 • Gorlak was hit for 68 hit points.
11:08:50 • Gorlak was critically hit for 163 hit points.
11:08:54 • Gorlak was hit for 97 hit points.
11:08:58 • Gorlak was hit for 94 hit points.
11:09:01 • Gorlak was critically hit for 217 hit points.
11:09:05 • Gorlak was hit for 69 hit points.
11:09:09 • Gorlak was critically hit for 161 hit points.
11:09:12 • Gorlak was hit for 91 hit points.
11:09:16 • Gorlak was hit for 26 hit points.
11:09:21 • Gorlak was hit for 51 hit points.
11:09:25 • Gorlak was hit for 96 hit points.
11:09:27 • Gorlak was hit for 92 hit points.
11:09:31 • Gorlak was hit for 96 hit points.
11:09:35 • Gorlak was hit for 99 hit points.
11:09:39 • Gorlak was hit for 87 hit points.
11:09:42 • Gorlak was hit for 75 hit points.
11:09:46 • Gorlak was hit for 66 hit points.
11:09:49 • Gorlak was hit for 65 hit points.
11:09:53 • Gorlak was hit for 67 hit points.
11:10:08 • Gorlak was hit for 89 hit points.
11:10:11 • BRDx2: ok, 20

BRDx2: ok, 20 shots
11:07:00 • BRDx2: lsw
11:07:03 • Gorlak was hit for 84 hit points.
11:07:06 • Gorlak was hit for 75 hit points.
11:07:11 • Gorlak was hit for 101 hit points.
11:07:13 • Gorlak was hit for 73 hit points.
11:07:17 • Gorlak was hit for 76 hit points.
11:07:21 • Gorlak was hit for 25 hit points.
11:07:24 • Gorlak was hit for 90 hit points.
11:07:28 • Gorlak was hit for 77 hit points.
11:07:31 • Gorlak was hit for 67 hit points.
11:07:35 • Gorlak was critically hit for 115 hit points.
11:07:39 • Gorlak was critically hit for 131 hit points.
11:07:42 • Gorlak was hit for 16 hit points.
11:07:46 • Gorlak was hit for 83 hit points.
11:07:50 • Gorlak was hit for 74 hit points.
11:07:53 • Gorlak was hit for 77 hit points.
11:07:57 • Gorlak was hit for 74 hit points.
11:08:03 • Gorlak was critically hit for 202 hit points and was killed.
11:08:12 • Gorlak was hit for 75 hit points.
11:08:16 • Gorlak was hit for 84 hit points.
11:08:33 • Gorlak was hit for 89 hit points.
11:08:36 • BRDx2: ok, 20

Critical hits were 161, 163 and 217 for Avenger and 115, 131 and 202 for the LSW. Avenger criticals are bigger than LSW. Avenger is just better.


AC is mean to also represent how likely the armour is to turn the bullet away without it hitting the target (ie deflect it away). I don't really think it makes too much sense.

[Crazy]

Try the same criticals hits without any BRD ;p
The point is: for a build without BRD, only more/better crit, it is better to use LSW.

AC is mean to also represent how likely the armour is to turn the bullet away without it hitting the target (ie deflect it away). I don't really think it makes too much sense.

Well, that's already the case with "no damage" result nah?

[Solar]

Then we are getting into the realms of building sub-optimal characters. If it turns out that the LSW would give better results given those restrictions (which I still doubt) then it would only be good. Different weapons suiting different builds.

Well, that's already the case with "no damage" result nah?

Well, you have the chance of it being deflected away in the AC, the amount of damage it will ignore in the DT and the lessening of anything which penetrates the armour in the DR. As I say, I'm not a great fan of the way AC works at the moment, so I won't waste the typing defending it

[Floodnik]

The point is: for a build without BRD, only more/better crit, it is better to use LSW.

From calculations BRD has better output still ;o

[skejwen]

About the AC: in fact, I don't really see what this atribute represent actually, why a guy in BA would be harder to hit (not hurt) than a guy in leather jacket? Logically, if it'w about dodging, it would even ba the opposite. The "armor class" make me think about it would represent "fiability" of an armor, representing the number and vulnerability of weak spots, so the resistance against criticals. But well, creating a new atribute for armor ms fine too ;p

Lets take a huge take that (with huge rounding) velocity of bullets are:
300 m/s for pistol bullets
800 m/s for rifles
While effective range for aiming using ivon sights are:
25-10 m for pistols
150-200 m for rifles
Then we can simply count time that takes bullet to reach its target on maximum effective range:
1/6 s for pistols
1/4 s for rifles
We can conclude that such time is way too less$to perform any dodge. So when shooting womeone with firearm it doesnt matter if that person is wearing armor or not for sake of hit, only shooter skills matter (though in close quarter - "hand to hand" range - it could be possible).

And about armor issue itself - there are several solves that come into my mind. Though I'll write it down later since Im exhausted after work

[wezu]

Lets take a huge take that (with huge rounding) velocity of bullets are:
300 m/s for pistol bullets
800 m/s for rifles
While effective range for aiming using iron sights are:
25-50 m for pistols
150-200 m for rifles
Then we can simply count time that takes bullet to reach its target on maximum effective range:
1/6 s for pistols
1/4 s for rifles
We can conclude that such time is way too less to perform any dodge. So when shooting someone with firearm it doesnt matter if that person is wearing armor or not for sake of hit, only shooter skills matter (though in close quarter - "hand to hand" range - it could be possible).

And about armor issue itself - there are several solves that come into my mind. Though I'll write it down later since Im exhausted after work

You have to be Neo to doge bullets, but think 'moving target'. In something heavy that restricts movement one would be moving slower and would be a easy target.
I hear people asking why then a person in LA is harder to hit then a guy in a jumpsiut. Well bright blue  is hard to miss.

[Solar]

I hear people asking why then a person in LA is harder to hit then a guy in a jumpsiut. Well bright blue  is hard to miss.

Probably best to increase the AC given from your Ag stat and then make armour's AC negative. Then being unarmoured gives the biggest boost and then Armours are different degrees of making you easier to hit.

[skejwen]

You have to be Neo to doge bullets, but think 'moving target'. In something heavy that restricts movement one would be moving slower and would be a easy target.
I hear people asking why then a person in LA is harder to hit then a guy in a jumpsiut. Well bright blue  is hard to miss.

If we make assumption that firearm hit instantly (for human reaction time) then hitting moving or static target matters only on shooter skills. Only full cover can protect from being hit

And argument about "heavy armor" - come on, its not some middle age full plate mail... Take as example two people - one without armor and other wearing bulletproof vest  - which one is easier to hit? Answer is - chance to hit each is same.

[wezu]

If we make assumption that firearm hit instantly (for human reaction time) then hitting moving or static target matters only on shooter skills. Only full cover can protect from being hit

Isn't it the way it works now? For someone with good skills 5 or 30 AC makes no  difference, he will still have 95% hit chance. I'm just making it up, the system is stupid, but maybe (just maybe) there is some thought behind it? No? Ok, couldn't care less.

Back on topic: Avenger boost? Em.. well... No? Me don't likes it.