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[Attero]

ok so when i held my hands on FN FAL i was quite happy tilli compared it with assult rifle and realised its FN FAIL ...lol
ammo is pain ,eats alot of it , lower range and less table (uses 2%mod isntead of 4% in perception equation)

but at least the damage should be better - but it wasnt (Assult gives about 60% more dam on my test subjects ) so i digged up the damage adjustment for ammo
5mm JHP - 2/1 DJ , +35% DR on target
5mm AP - 1/2 DJ -35% DR
7.62 1/1 -10% DR .


now my question is how is the DA applied towards bonus damage perks ?
if weapon have 8-18 damage ; 2x Bonus Ranged perks , using JHp ammo for a 2x damage increase ..
its 8~18+ 4 => average 17 and then multiply by two = > 32
or more likely  -> 8~18 => average 13*2 +4 => 30 damage?  (the differance is not much in this case but for more bursty weapons and more perks its much bigger differance..)

EDIT: Ah and for AP armor the importance of this is yet more ->
average dam of 13 ->
13*0.5+4 =10.5
(13+4)*0.5 = 8.5 ...

[Frosti]

Bonus Ranged Damage adds +2 to demage FROM bullet NOT x2. 

As for "FN FAIL" this weapon was probly nerfed.

[Attero]

Bonus Ranged Damage adds +2 to demage FROM bullet NOT x2. 

As for "FN FAIL" this weapon was probly nerfed.

the 2 comes from JHP ammo modifer (2x dam )

[Atom]

Ammo stats are a bit different in FOnline - they can be seen in the ammo description in the inventory screen. "Armor piercing" property works like giving the weapon free Penetrate perk (it divides enemy's DT by 5, does not stack with other effects that bypass armour). In this case, AP has 3/4 and -35% dmg mod and dr mod, respectively.

Each rank of the Bonus Ranged Damage adds two points to the base weapon damage, so it is applied to every bullet, before the ammo modifiers are used. This means that BRD works best with ammo with higher damage multiplier, and there was ongoing discussion whether to change this bonus to +2 per bullet, regardless the modifiers.

Also note that unless shooting at point blank range (one hex), due to the burst cone only 3 assault rifle bullets can hit the primary target (and it's 4 for FN FAL).

[Attero]

love when you come posting coz you get the questions answered ;]

yea i used wiki again for source my bad ...

So AP ammo does 3 things actually ? divides DR by 5 (heck alot 10 ->2 for eample ..) , reduced the weapon damage to 3/4 and reduces the DR by 35% ? (dont have AP one on me so i can only repeat what you said ) .... i think thats realy realy strong ammo - the only bad part of it is that it reduces the bonus damage from perks ...(am i right that the max value for it is 9 ? 2x Bonus ranged + Living natomy ? or maybe living works differently? )

as for cone - yea but i dont think we can estimate much the amount of bulets that hit in - but as you say here is a limit of how many bulets can kick in ? unless point blank - it looks like 40% of bulets can hit the primary target - its true for any weapon ?


if you by any chance come to read this post can you share info on critical hits ?
what im looking for is:
Bonus to crit chance for aimed
how does ignore armor effect works ( all armor (DT , DR) is ignroed or only a portion) , if not fully ignored is it cumulative with -DR on some ammo (like .223)
how is the critical damage applied for regular crits - first it gets multiplied then reduced by DT and DR or the other way..

[Badger]

Also note that unless shooting at point blank range (one hex), due to the burst cone only 3 assault rifle bullets can hit the primary target (and it's 4 for FN FAL).

Really? Can we make the burst cone tighter? I'd like to see small arms burst useful at more than point blank.

[Attero]

Really? Can we make the burst cone tighter? I'd like to see small arms burst useful at more than point blank.

 think that the 40% restriction (as i belive its global) is mainly for miniguns - this way  you dont need to fear to eat a full burst at long range (very random but would be possible) os indtead of 40 bullets you just eat 16at most (just run from point blank minigunning ;]) (every bullet dealing even 10 dam)

[Atom]

First:
http://www.nma-fallout.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=676295#676295
The burst mechanics in FO2, FOnline burst is identical except with the corrected bug mentioned there. Also, most shotguns use only one line. Yes, this isn't really a cone, but that's how they called it in the FO2 manual. The distance of one hex is a special case where the bullets won't spread, beacause it's treated as a close melee range. Flame attack works practically the same way, except there's only one "bullet" for each line, and it can hit multiple targets at once. By the way, the mentioned PDF is still on the TODO list, has been for half of a year.
One conclusion is - roughly one sixth of the bullets will easily hit the primary target, and another one sixth will try their best - but the more of them are fired, the smaller will be the fraction that hit. Since most weapons use no more than 10 bullets, total amount will still be close to 1/3 (rounded up).

That post also comments armor piercing/armor bypassing, but you might want to look at this:
http://fodev.net/forum/index.php?topic=935.msg7545#msg7545
Again, it's a complete assembler -> high level translation. And, as said already, in FOnline ammo can have an instrict property of armor piercing (the same is true for some special unarmed attacks). All kinds of armor piercing effects don't stack, simply the best is considered. Living anatomy is explained there too - +5 to final number, providing correct body type.

The critical hit chance bonus from an aimed shot was changed together with the critical tables themselves, the bonus is now equal to (50+5*LUCK)% of the original value (which was 60 p% for eyes etc.).

[Attero]

awsome! thx!

reading it now but i got fast questions that i shoot hoping you are still here ;]

50+5*Luck <- bonus for eye shot ? thats ugly amount with 8 luck giving 98% of crit OO (base crit is 8 and 90 as bonus). IF its like this then the critical effect tables must been nerfed or smth - any info ?   http://falloutmods.wikia.com/wiki/Critical_hit_tables those from F2

EDIT: with finesse its 6 luck. Now it was asked somewhere but i wasnt answered i think - does -DR modifier on some ammo work with finesse penalty ?
target 10 DR +35% = > 45% ammo reduces by 20% -> 25% final DR? (mayeb its answered in second link havnt processed it  yet)

Armor_bypassing from crit doesnt work with EMP weapons you said in first link - EMP as electro magnetic pulse -.. uh  thsoe arnt avaible in Fonline i belive ...or you meant whole  energy weapons by this short?


EDIT: What stands for the dr_mod in second link ? modifiers from ammo ? then asuming it can be negative AP from ammo would stack with critical_bypassing
dt = armor_dt/5; dr = armor_dr/5 + dr_mod <-
yes - its explined later that its ammo modifier so it cant be negative as you said those two doesnt stack

[Atom]

the bonus is now equal to (50+5*LUCK)% of the original value (which was 60 p% for eyes etc.).

Which means, with luck 8 you get (50+40)% of 60%, so 54%.
Also, that wikia page is actually the worst there, the explanation is flawed, and the table is some bizzare mix from different critical tables. http://falloutmods.wikia.com/wiki/Critical_hit_tables is, on the other hand, excellent one. Only that "random" hit effect is just "cripple a random limb". Also, critical tables for uncalled shot aren't listed, only mentioned - in FO2, uncalled shots were indentical to torso shots, even though the tables for uncalled critical shot existed in the game data. FOnline, on the other hand, is using the uncalled table (it's very similar to torso table).

About finesse, it's in the damage algorithm. Like everything relevant.

EMP is just another damage type, but invisible in the stats, all critters except robots have it set to 500%. The only weapon that use this type of damage is the pulse grenade.

EDIT: about the dr_mod - yes, it's that "-35%" for DR. But this isn't something considered as "effect" (like critical effect, weapon perk and "ammo perk"), it's just an ordinary parameter. It is applied after bypass armor is taken into account (which also means that 5mm JHP ammo can't deal more than 1.4 of the raw damage).
EDIT2: so, again - it works like, "take DT and DR; consider all "hard" effects such as weapon penetrating ability (and the damage type), ammo penetrating ability, special unarmed attack and armor piercing ability; then apply DR". Armor bypassing critical with 5mm AP ammo against someone with 90% DR will result in making it 18% (by the critical effect), and then -17% (by the dr_mod), next clamped to 0%.

[Attero]

ah lol sorry i somehow understood "of the original value" as "instead"

1) Living anatomy -from the pseudocode - it looks like its applied after "suming up" damage of all bullets? so it would be totaly inferior to bonus ranged damage for burst weapons

2) EMP - ah so all player weapons (including energy) are capable of armor bypassing - rgr /cut out the stupid granade /

3) As armor bypasssing effects doesnt stack - i think i know now - the DR/5 can by applied onlu once . However when armor is bypassed by critical and ammo helds penalty do targets DR then those two effects stack.


i think it covers it up ... well will need to compare results with some "Test" weapons and armor but that will come later...

4) now i yet have question regarding cone attack:
You said there are left right and centre lines the the bullets travel ... or its more that those are cones?
if i imagine those as lines then centre would be aimed at target while left and right at hexes adjacent to the target (or in some distance)
now what bugs me what happens when target is far away but there is something on the way to the target ? (not directly to attacker but close - lets say target is 30hexes away but there is someone 10 hexes away and on the line to the target)
with that case assuming left and right bullets travel like i said ealier will they hit the close target?

in other words if you are quite close to minigun but not in point blank if the aim is at something far behind can you eat all the bullets "by accident?" ><

part that primary target never gets hit by more then 1/3 of bullets - check


thx a lot  Atom , really appreciate it

[Atom]

1,2,3) Yes.
4) Yet another ancient picture dug up: http://img19.imageshack.us/img19/5391/conj3.png
It still bears the name "conjecture three", but now it's a certain thing - reverse engineered from the exe. And again, roughly speaking, this happens:
a) take about 1/6 bullets, let each of them try to hit the primary target independently,
b) push those that missed along the central path, trying to hit other targets on the way, skipping the primary target (they had their chance to hit it already),
c) push another 1/6 of the bullets along the central path, each time the volley encounter a critter, bullets will try to hit it until one of them fails, the rest will not try to hit it and fly to the next target on the line (if any),
d) push 1/3 of the bullets in the same manner as in c) along the left line,
e) push 1/3 of the bullets in the same manner as in c) along the right line.

"Left line" consist of the hex adjacent to the attacker (it's common for all paths), then it jumps to that one hex which is 3 hexes far from the attacker, and continue along the drawn line. Same for right path. They can get pretty weird looking if the central one is not "straight" hex-line. In FOnline they are just the best approximations of "real" lines drawn through the centres of the attacker's and the target's hexes, and their parallel translations. In FO2 they produce similar results, but are slightly bugged and inconsistent.

About the "acidental" shooting of the close target - yes. That's actually how you could effectively use a minigun in FO2 to maximize your kills - killing one far target with 1/6 bullets, and three more standing close on the main lines.

Note that in FOnline, for AI purposes, such "accidental" attack usually counts as a normal attack - in case of players it's impossible to tell if this was a deliberate action, or true accidental fire. Such attack is not treated as intentional only if the attacker is a non-follower NPC (obviously no problem with that, as it is fully controlled by the server).

[Attero]

that picture says it all and answered my question - only the first hex next to attacker can eat all bullets. and where you aim doesn't change the fact

so from minigun you on average you will eat 12 bullets at range and 30 at point blank ;]

[Elmehdi]

Thanks guys for this talk, it's very informative  .

[Atom]

so from minigun you on average you will eat 12 bullets at range and 30 at point blank ;]

At most 10, not 12 (the approximation by 1/3 gets better with the number of bullets fired). And the expected value with 95% to-hit, assuming no targets on the way, is something around 9.0482. So, it's 9 really.