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me like

26 (65%)

me not like

14 (35%)

Total Members Voted: 40

[Archvile]

Not sure now 100%, but if I remember correct, one of the biggest problem with perma-cripple was uber-unarmed characters who spawn camped respawn points and crippled as much people as possible.

That's not a problem. Just make fighting impossible in hospitals (really no reason to insist on allowing it in there, respawn points aren't ordinary locations).
If we once had working entrance timeout, it sure could be modified to work for that purpose in hospitals (lasting long, allowing non-hostile actions).

[RJ]

@up
1.

It's the exactly same argument as saying that enemies shouldn't be able hurt you too much or kill you because it will make the game too hard for anyone who hasn't tagged a combat skill.

I don't think so... sistah! Combat is essential part of game. Well whatever: 9/10 PvP players got doctor tagged anyway. So what's the point of this? Just to kick in balls some unlucky new players?

@Nice_Boat

2. Hell yes. I could just put someone down, search him checking whether he's dangerous or not and then FA and let him go or finish him off. We did this with steal anyway from time to time, but it didn't guarantee success due to items in the active slots and having to pass a steal check if we wanted to loot.

Aren't you guys using big guns mostly?

This game needs some more info about which guns players are using: same sprite for lot of them and don't tell me that I need to take awareness to see diffrence between flamer and M60.
Scypior was saying something about 3D player model with attachable weapons etc. Till that time I would be happy to see simple text information when I look at player: what is he holding in hands and "secondary slot". Awareness still should say how much hit points one have and does he have his gun loaded etc...

2.
It's up to players to terrorize others well enough to make them drop part of their stuff. Getting players uncocious without killing them isnt that easy nowadays (unless you use weapon that makes low damage)
I would be for this feature if you could use special weapons: like tasers or cattleprods with effect to make players uncocious. It's some work for devs but if they would implement it then I am ok with that.
Thought there are more important things to do now and one would need to carefully think how to make tasers and cattleprods work so they won't get abused (oh, guy in combat armor and minigun! let's shoot him with taser and get his stuff!).

[Archvile]

I don't think so... sistah! Combat is essential part of game.

Survival in a hostile environment is essential part of the setting, which is essential part of the game (for some).

Well whatever: 9/10 PvP players got doctor tagged anyway. So what's the point of this? Just to kick in balls some unlucky new players?

Yesss, I have a secret agenda to make people suffer:
1. post a stupid suggestion
2. persuade devs to implement it
3. enjoy the feeling of power when hundreds of players from around the planet will have shorter life spans from all the stress and frustration caused by being unable to outrun rats in a computer game

Seriously, all I care about is to have a game that I will like. If I yawn indifferently everytime I die, I know I'm going to lose interest pretty soon (and I did stop playing for over three months). On the other hand if I know that I have a lot to lose by dying then every dangerous situation will cause nice feeling of excitement. That's why I want death to be inconvenient or items hard to craft. Easy game is a boring game. A game with rules that don't seem logical to me is stupid.


I agree that information about what weapon someone is holding should be available to anyone without Awareness.

[RJ]

@up

Survival in a hostile environment is essential part of the setting, which is essential part of the game (for some).

What does "survive in hostile enviroment" mean when death is not permament?  Nobody is afraid of death in game itself - they are only afraid of losing their equipment. On longer run this game have no goal. Only players find their own and try to reach them.
Anyway if you crippled limb is supposed to be penantly for death it isn't really something to be afraid of only to get irritaited by and that's what I want to point out.

Yesss, I have a secret agenda to make people suffer:

Good to know.

[Archvile]

What does "survive in hostile enviroment" mean when death is not permament?  Nobody is afraid of death in game itself - they are only afraid of losing their equipment. On longer run this game have no goal. Only players find their own and try to reach them.
Anyway if you crippled limb is supposed to be penantly for death it isn't really something to be afraid of only to get irritaited by and that's what I want to point out.

For your information, I would welcome permanent death. But I can see how it might impede actual beta-testing and won't be implemented any time soon, so there's no point in advocating for it now. Maybe someday.

The question if one is either "afraid" of dying or losing items is just semantic. We mean the same thing. Dying is a setback. Setback is what people don't like. If they don't like it, they have an incentive to avoid it. If they try to avoid dying, the in-game world gains more credibility and therefore allows more profound, enjoyable experience.
Crippled limbs can in no way be a penalty for death. You get them crippled before or while you die and they just stay that way. If you don't die you have to heal them yourself or find someone to do it. Death is a death. Even if it's make-believe it should in no way help you with ANYTHING. You were injured - you are injured, you were poisoned - you are poisoned, you were radiated - you are radiated, you were addicted - you are addicted, you were tagged for some crime - you are tagged for some crime. That's how it should work. If there are any benefits from dying, death will be exploited -- resulting in bullshit. The only penalty for dying is losing items (which are way too easy to obtain) and being stranded without them with exactly the same problems you had before dying. It's the setback that will require you to put some effort to regain your previous status.

An example of bullshit mechanics:
I was once exploring caves near the Glow. It's quite far so I managed to use almost all ammo, not realizing I had just about dozen shots left. And then I got my leg crippled. Tough situation: I can't run from encounters and I have ammo left for just one fight at best. And there are ghoul crazies on the way. My first attemp at doctor skill failed, but the countdown was only 12 minutes back then so I thought, I'd give it a try and took a short brake. With a freak luck the second time was a success.
But I could as well go to the Glow drop my items in an obscure corner, wait to die, respawn healthy as a horse, run back (on the way picking up some more ammo from my tent), and easily escaping any encounters be back at the Glow, quickly get my stuff back, get out and continue to rock and roll. All in a matter of maybe 3 minutes. If a game allows something like that, it means its mechanics are broken. Of course one broken leg wouldn't make that much difference. But it would stall me for several minutes, maybe more if I were to die three times in a row when trying to leave the respawn point. If getting there back was to take me 20 minutes, maybe I'd reconsider and just risk travelling injured. That's why these small obstacles like permanent injuries,  poison, radiation, weakened state have a purpose and aren't just a pointless nuisance.

[Roachor]

Permanent crippling is a terrible idea because of the low chance and insanely high cooldown for characters with low doctor.

[RavenWolf]

i agree, permanent crippling its a bad idea, but i like the 2 and 3.

for poison and radiation:
-poison: improve damage, remove poison when respawn
-radiation: remove only 30% of the current radiation level when respawn.

and a little suggestion: when respawn, make the weaken cooldown improve if the player has died witth cripled limbs, high poison lvl, etc

[skejwen]

i agree, permanent crippling its a bad idea, but i like the 2 and 3.

for poison and radiation:
-poison: improve damage, remove poison when respawn
-radiation: remove only 30% of the current radiation level when respawn.

and a little suggestion: when respawn, make the weaken cooldown improve if the player has died witth cripled limbs, high poison lvl, etc

a lot better than perma-crippling

[Roachor]

Perma death is an incredibly stupid proposition for this game. You have a combat system designed for a completely different kind of game, lag issues, encounters you have no chance of surviving and a hostile player population. It would be an exercise in aggravation and only a masochist would enjoy it.

[Archvile]

Let's stop calling it perma-cripple, perma-poison or perma-radiation.

From now on, the common term is:

death-that-does-not-heal-you

[Roachor]

Let's stop calling it perma-cripple, perma-poison or perma-radiation.

From now on, the common term is:

death-that-does-not-heal-you

So any character that doesn't have doctor lvl 3 and at least 5 int will be unplayable.

[Lexx]

Why?

- You can talk to other players and ask them to use doctor skill on you.

- You can try it yourself.

- Hitpoints regenerate over time.

Not that I am pro-this idea, just sayin.

[Archvile]

Are you kidding me? Exactly what part of it will be unplayable? Is it unplayable now? Because only difference from now, concerning injuries, would be that every injury would have to be healed by SOMEBODY eventually. That's what the doctor skill is there for. If you don't want to specialize in doctor skill, you don't have to. Just like you don't have to specialize in armor crafting to have an armor. You can buy it. You can have somebody craft it for you. If you're a douche, you can craft it with your armorer alt. That's how specialization works. If you create a specialized build with low IN, don't expect it to be versatile. The price of mastery is being dependant on others (or your gay alts). The price of being self-sufficient is not achievieng a mastery. Deal with it, make your choice.

Seriously, people, come up with something more than just "it's a bad idea", "I don't like it", "new players", "it's just a game", "nah"...
The only valid argument so far, is the one with new characters not being able to get out of respawn. To which I pointed out it's pretty much exaggerated, but still proposed some example solutions. As for high level chars -- as I said before -- you make your choices. You can raise you doctor, you can raise outdoorsman (and only 100% is enough to avoid most encounters), or suffer the consequences of making a power build from time to time. Tell me I'm not making any sense.

What you seem to not realize is that once the doctor profession stops being useless there will be more doctor chars out there to help you. And it's not like the doctor skill is never to be tweaked ever again.

It's a shame that for a game which has an "F" for "fallout" in its title the threat of radiation poisoning is non-existant. One thing is that there are few sources of radiation (and original games are at a fault here too, ironically F3 is the best in this matter), but another thing is that even when you get radiated -- it simply doesn't matter! -- because before you manage to accumulate enough radiation to feel its effects, you will die and your rad count goes back to zero with a click of a finger. Meanwhile, rad-away and rad-x drugs are worthless pieces of trash. In a post-nuclear world.
Similarly with venom poisoning. Do you remeber agonizing Jarvis? Do you remember what a big problem radscorpions were for the people of Shady Sands? Their venom was so dangerous that only finding the antidote could be a turning point in that battle. And now? Meh...

[Badger]

The problem is how easy it is to cripple someone compared to how much long it takes to uncripple. Crippling someone takes a matter of seconds and not necessarily a lot of skill, but to get uncrippled without a doctor and quite possibly no money is going to be a long, boring and shitty process. The impact on the victim is not proportional to the effort of the attacker. It just takes some bluesuit to critkick you in Reno and you've got to wander down to the NCR and just stand around saying 'NEED DOCTOR' for five minutes. I just don't see how it enhances the game.

Don't get me wrong, I would like to see death have more of an effect on characters. But the problem is that life is too cheap and people are too aggressive to make it work. If someone murdering you actually meant something, then I'd agree with it. But people are blasting each other like it's Quake out there. Killing a guy isn't your last resort, it's your first line of defense. If killing a guy had an effect on the murderer as well as the victim, I'd support something like this. I think the Beserker reputation might have a use here. Perhaps if you kill enough players unprovoked, you're labelled as the merciless bastard you are.

[Roachor]

Here's why it would be unplayable, every character would have to put points into doctor or end up being a huge pain in the ass to play. Let's say you are either low level or don't have doctor tagged and you get your leg crippled and die. If you fail your attempt with low skill its a 2 hour cooldown, you can't escape any encounter in either modes so chances are you'll die several times before you reach a town. Once you get there you have to rely on someone else with doctor to be standing around and be nice enough to heal you.