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Author Topic: Alternative Solution to Guards in "Guarded" Towns  (Read 2954 times)

Alternative Solution to Guards in "Guarded" Towns
« on: May 02, 2010, 08:34:19 pm »

Before presenting the suggestion I first would like to highlight the current problems faced in the towns of  Junktown, Vault City, Hub and recently Shady Sands; commonly referred to Guarded Towns and will be referred to just the name "town(s)" in the post. The first is the guards are NPCs who are unable to cope with the complex situations occurring day to day in guarded towns. The second is the debate of how strong guards should be to able to fend of opposing factions looking to raid cities, while at the same time leaving the option of raiding a city a possibility. In this post I will present possible solutions that can serve as a rough framework based on my experiences in FOnline and other games which have similar mechanics.

1.) Introduction of PC Guards

PC Guards are part of a centralized organization (Roleplaying is not required, but maturity is) located within the town with a Leader and multiple Co-Leaders whose functions are administrative tasks as well as guarding the town. At the start of the organization the players apply to be PC Guards using their own characters and the Leader (who also has a regular character) decides who should be eligible to join. The Leader only answers to the mayor/organizational head of the town (which can be thought of as the GM). The best way to think about the PC Guards are as a faction.

2.) Requirements to Join

Here I will only provide what I see as essential for recruits to be accepted (this can be adjusted as the Leader sees fit). The first is that the sum of their equipment tiers, which they will use while guarding adds up to 3. The second is that they have Latin names and can communicate sufficiently in English. The third is that they can provide their own gear. To give examples:
a.) A player with a Leather Jacket and a 10mm Pistol will not be eligible to join.
b.) A player with a Metal Armor and Desert Eagle will be eligible to join
c.) A player with Combat Armor and 10mm will be eligible to join.

3.) Guarding the Town

PC Guards take no reputation/karma penalties upon attacking anyone in the town where they are expected to Guard. If any player attacks the PC Guards, they are in turn attacked by NPC Guards (assuming they are still present in the town). To give examples:
a.) A player enters town who is known to be a thief, before he does any stealing he is killed by a the PC Guard who takes no penalties and the NPC Guards do not respond to the attack, other than to loot the thief.
b.) Said player comes back and punches the guard, in turn he is killed by the NPC Guards and looted.
c.) A new player who has a Cyrillic name enters the town and is killed by the PC Guard, because he doesn't like Cyrillic names, the PC Guard takes no penalties and the NPC Guards do not respond to the attack, other than to loot the player. (Solution to this situation and others will be provided in this post)

4.) Benefits for Guarding the Town

Within the administrative building of the town is a footlocker which spawns X% of Caps that occurred from transaction in trading between players and town merchants. Also the footlocker spawns equipment that would be turned to Caps by the merchants of the town, maybe even looted items by NPC Guards . Only the Leader and possibly the Co-Leaders are allowed to loot the footlocker, hence Caps and equipment are distributed as the Leader sees fit (similarly to running a faction and determining who gets what depending on how much time and effort were put in by the players).

5.) Grievances against the PC Guards

Players can submit grievances to the Leader (through methods to be determined; can be a forum post) with appropriate proof and then it is up to the Leader to determine the consequences. If many grievances are not answered the organizational head of the town (GM) intervenes. To give examples:
a.) The players with Cyrillic names who are killed by the PC Guard in 3c file grievance and the Leader investigates and decides to kick the PC Guard out.
b.) In 5a the Leader assumes that they were probably suicide bombers and decides to do nothing. The players then pester the GM (if they haven't already done so), in turn the GM creates a poll and people vote on how well the Leader is doing. If the poll shows favorable results for the Leader, the Leader stays in power, if not the Leader is demoted.

6.) Possible Problems and Solutions

Here I just will write what I think can be problems with regards to player interactions and not engine limitations.
a.) Problem: Some players constantly spam the GM that they are loosing 100k Caps because PC Guards are killing them (this can be true or untrue but this is what they say)
Solution: To prevent the GM from constantly making polls everyday to evaluate the Leader, it is limited to once every X amount of days. Also if the player feels he/she is being treated unfairly just move to a different town.
b.) Problem: PC Guards cannot be around 24/7 and the Leader has only a limited amount of time to do anything.
Solution: PC Guards are supplemented with NPC Guards, so if no PC Guards are available at certain times of day, then we are back to the current situation and nothing is lost. Hopefully Leader chose intelligent members for the PC Guards who can function effectively so he/she doesn't always have to be there.
c.) Problem: Who decides who are Leaders (one for each town)?
Solution: Possibly the GMs or the players could take a vote on it.
d.) Problem: This will create drama!
Solution: I know, but this is how you make a game interesting. :)

7.) Closing Thoughts

The reason why I am making this suggestion is two fold. The first is playing the "good guys" has no real benefits and is extremely boring, which I can agree on. The second is to increase the roleplay on the server, besides NCR Army which requires to play a very specific role, where as here it is just your character taking on the additional role of a guard. Also I was a bit bored. :P Realistically I doubt this would be seen in the game but I just wanted to bring this out there because I have played PvP/PK games aside from FOnline that have PC Guards and it works well and is also very interesting for both the defenders and aggressors.
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vedaras

  • King of the wasteland
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Re: Alternative Solution to Guards in "Guarded" Towns
« Reply #1 on: May 02, 2010, 08:51:15 pm »

if it would be up to me i would make guards like "table" i mean something that can move and do everything as npc, but you cannot click them aim at them, you can just use "see" same as on table :>

FischiPiSti

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Re: Alternative Solution to Guards in "Guarded" Towns
« Reply #2 on: May 02, 2010, 09:06:05 pm »

inb4 "So basically what youre suggesting is to enable a modified TC in the NCR."

Anyways im voting against it
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Re: Alternative Solution to Guards in "Guarded" Towns
« Reply #3 on: May 02, 2010, 09:19:01 pm »

I don't understand, so if I'm a guard, I can kill all cyrillic names on sight? lol?
What the hell is this?
For example I don't like all X nation.
I creating topic:
Let's kill all players who has I.P. of X country without any punishment, because most of them are PKs!!!11
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Re: Alternative Solution to Guards in "Guarded" Towns
« Reply #4 on: May 02, 2010, 09:50:30 pm »

I don't understand, so if I'm a guard, I can kill all cyrillic names on sight? lol?
What the hell is this?
For example I don't like all X nation.
I creating topic:
Let's kill all players who has I.P. of X country without any punishment, because most of them are PKs!!!11

Assuming that you passed recruitment, then yeah you are free to do it, but with consequences. By the way this had nothing to do with kill all of country X, I just gave an example.
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Re: Alternative Solution to Guards in "Guarded" Towns
« Reply #5 on: May 02, 2010, 10:10:00 pm »

This would never work because
A) Guarding a town is boring and there is only the chance to lose shit
B) It would get the shit exploited out of it by gangs
C) People aren't online 24/7, nor are they able to spot thieves or bombers.
D) They'd probably get owned worse by gangs than NPC guards do, you can't compete with AI for speed and even VC has had it's staff wiped out by players. Just look at how many guards had to be added with insane health just to have semi-peace in NCR.
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Re: Alternative Solution to Guards in "Guarded" Towns
« Reply #6 on: May 02, 2010, 11:01:02 pm »

It will don't work, the gangs itself don't protect really a city, they claim it, then go away or stay out and come in when some loot or enemy appear.
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One often meets his destiny on the road he takes to avoid it
Re: Alternative Solution to Guards in "Guarded" Towns
« Reply #7 on: May 02, 2010, 11:21:48 pm »

The only way how NCR Police Department can work is:
Members of this faction can see (thief), (dangerous), (blocker) tags. Attacking members of this faction will cause attackers to lose NCR reputation, hehehehehehe, khm.
If a member of police faction attacking protected player at NCR, he'll lose x5 more reputation with NCR.
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Re: Alternative Solution to Guards in "Guarded" Towns
« Reply #8 on: May 03, 2010, 12:14:25 am »

Yeah maybe something like that can work RavenousRat.
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Re: Alternative Solution to Guards in "Guarded" Towns
« Reply #9 on: May 27, 2010, 08:42:58 pm »

this can be fun but it may need some changes. rather than "i killed him first and asked questions later." behaviour, how'bout...

tags: there should be different types of tags. much (very much! =)) like ultima online.

innocent (blue)
permagray (blue)
aggressor (gray)
criminal (gray)
vilified! (red)

scenarios:
a) i'm inocent (blue). i shoot you (innocent (blue)) in the face. you don't die. i lose "some" amount of city karma (ncr karma etc.). i'm now criminal (gray) all players (pc guard or regular citizen) can attack me. and the npc guards attack me too.

b) i'm innocent (blue). i shoot you (innocent (blue)) in the face. you die. i loose "huge" amounts of city karma (ncr karma etc.). and lose "some" amount of other guarded cities karmas. i'm criminal (gray) again. all players (pc guard and regular citizen) can attack me. and the npc guards attack me too.

c) when i lose "enough" amount of city karma (ncr karma etc.) i'm vilified (red) when i'm in that town and vilified (red) in encounters with that town's guards., rangers etc. all players (pc guard or regular citizens) can attack me freely when i'm in that town. and the npc guards (in both city and encounter) attack me too.

d) i'm innocent (blue). i try to steal from you (innocent (blue)). and fail, and i'm detected. i lose "some" amount of city karma (ncr karma etc.) i'm now criminal (gray). all players (pc guard or regular citizen) can attack me. and the npc guards attack me too.

e) i'm innocent (blue). i try to steal from you (innocent (blue)). and succeed, but i'm detected. i lose "some" amount of city karma (ncr karma etc.) i'm now criminal (gray). all players (pc guard or regular citizen) can attack me. and the npc guards attack me too.

f) i'm innocent (blue). i try to steal from you (innocent (blue)). and succeed, and i'm not detected. i don't lose any karma. i'm still blue, but i'm permagray. all players (pc guard or regular citizens) can attack me. but the npc guards won't. now this is where it gets tricky.

f1) i'm permagray (blue). all players (pc guard or regular citizens) can attack me. but they become aggressor (gray) to me (only to me). i can retaliate freely without being interfered by the npc guards. so let's assume i'm permagray (blue) and you (innocent (blue) attack me. i attack you. now i'm aggressor (gray) to you. and a third person sees 2 blue people attacking eachother. since the npc guards won't interfere, try to be a hero at your own risk!

f2) i'm permagray (blue). you're innocent (blue). you kill me. you gain "some" amount of city karma.

f3) i'm permagray (blue). you're innocent (blue). i kill you. i lose "huge" amounts of city karma, and lose "some" amounts of other guarded cities karmas.

g) i'm criminal (gray). you (blue (innocent)) attack me. you're now agressor (gray) to me. i can attack you. the guards won't interfere. but they're already attacking me becouse i was criminal (gray) in the first place. and i know i probably wouldn't mind if the game would let me attack you since i'm a lawless criminal. but that's the system.

h) i'm innocent (blue). you're any color. i try to steal from you. the results are the same as d, e, f regarding the outcome of the theft attempt.

i) when a thief succesfully steals an item in a guarded city and dies in x minutes in that city, the stolen items return to the owner automaticly. (whether or not the thief is detected.)

j) permagray (blue) lasts until death. criminal (blue) lasts for x minutes.

so it's pretty simple actually. you think you can attack someone? (blue or gray) you can. but you'll become agressor (gray) to them, regardless of their color. (reds stay red even if they're agressor to someone btw) and they can attack back. and if you're wrong about one's being permagray and attack them, well the guards whack you becouse you become criminal (gray).

this was the system in ultima online's the second age era. (i've made a few minor changes) i'm sure many people will disagree with this, since this is fallout and not ultima online. and they may be perfectly right. but this system makes a lot of sense to me. (makes more sense than guards doing absolutely nothing to thieves.)

my minor changes:
1) in uo thieves lose karma even if they're not detected. i see karma as "what people think of you." so if you're not detected, noone can say you're a bad guy. and uo doesn't have ciy karmas, it has only one karma. but i think losing and gaining city karmas is better, since it won't affect important things like perks. i'm not really sure if it should or shouldn't affect major karma by the way.

2) and players get murder counts too, for killing innocent players. there are 2 kinds of murder counts. short term and long term. if you have more than 5 short term murder counts you're red and you lose a certain percantage of skills when you die (when you resurrect actually. so it's possible to see some red ghosts waiting for short time MCs to be 0). short time murders decrease by 1 per 5 hours of online time. long term counts decrease by 1 per 40 hours of online time. you get 1 short and 1 long term murder count if you kill an innocent. since this thing has statloss which i'm fanatically against, and it might be redundant to add murder count stuff, i converted this to losing karma in all guarded cities.

3) uo has another type of grayness. it's called karma gray. when you have low karma you're gray. the game acts exactly as if you're permagray (blue), npc guards don't attack you unless you attack an innocent (blue) and other players can attack you. i think this would make a hard game even harder. since you're karma gray until, well, you gain enough karma. it might prove a bit difficult when most of the power playing types attacks you on sight.

4) uo has another type of redness. it's called karma red. when you have very low karma you're red. there's no statloss if you don't have 5 short term murder counts. npc guards whack you on sight. (not positive on this) and players can attack you. since i converted murder count system to city karma system, we don't need another karma based redness.

possible problems: (if you think of another possible problems, please let me know.)
when a person is vilified in a town, i think there's no way that he'll ever be accepted again in this system. maybe "some sort of quest to prove your good intentions." might do the trick.

now let's get to pc guard business! i think the captain of the guards should give all the recruits a standard gun, a standard armor, and a standard amount of ammo, maybe 2 stimpacks too. this should be initial and initial only. (and no "i leave now. i sign up tomorrow. gimme me stuff!" business!) then pay them some cash weekly. that's it. no special "you can attack everyone becouse a higher being lets you." power. just an initial payment in supplies, and a salary. and the satisfying feeling of doing the right thing. because doing good is its own reward.

i'd love to join no mater the system by the way. make this happen. =)
« Last Edit: May 27, 2010, 09:12:42 pm by Cokomantis »
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arathhunter

  • Arath =Gray Rock Village Leader= -Canadian Drow-
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Re: Alternative Solution to Guards in "Guarded" Towns
« Reply #10 on: May 28, 2010, 01:24:13 am »

this can be fun but it may need some changes. rather than "i killed him first and asked questions later." behaviour, how'bout...

tags: there should be different types of tags. much (very much! =)) like ultima online.

innocent (blue)
permagray (blue)
aggressor (gray)
criminal (gray)
vilified! (red)

scenarios:
a) i'm inocent (blue). i shoot you (innocent (blue)) in the face. you don't die. i lose "some" amount of city karma (ncr karma etc.). i'm now criminal (gray) all players (pc guard or regular citizen) can attack me. and the npc guards attack me too.

b) i'm innocent (blue). i shoot you (innocent (blue)) in the face. you die. i loose "huge" amounts of city karma (ncr karma etc.). and lose "some" amount of other guarded cities karmas. i'm criminal (gray) again. all players (pc guard and regular citizen) can attack me. and the npc guards attack me too.

c) when i lose "enough" amount of city karma (ncr karma etc.) i'm vilified (red) when i'm in that town and vilified (red) in encounters with that town's guards., rangers etc. all players (pc guard or regular citizens) can attack me freely when i'm in that town. and the npc guards (in both city and encounter) attack me too.

d) i'm innocent (blue). i try to steal from you (innocent (blue)). and fail, and i'm detected. i lose "some" amount of city karma (ncr karma etc.) i'm now criminal (gray). all players (pc guard or regular citizen) can attack me. and the npc guards attack me too.

e) i'm innocent (blue). i try to steal from you (innocent (blue)). and succeed, but i'm detected. i lose "some" amount of city karma (ncr karma etc.) i'm now criminal (gray). all players (pc guard or regular citizen) can attack me. and the npc guards attack me too.

f) i'm innocent (blue). i try to steal from you (innocent (blue)). and succeed, and i'm not detected. i don't lose any karma. i'm still blue, but i'm permagray. all players (pc guard or regular citizens) can attack me. but the npc guards won't. now this is where it gets tricky.

f1) i'm permagray (blue). all players (pc guard or regular citizens) can attack me. but they become aggressor (gray) to me (only to me). i can retaliate freely without being interfered by the npc guards. so let's assume i'm permagray (blue) and you (innocent (blue) attack me. i attack you. now i'm aggressor (gray) to you. and a third person sees 2 blue people attacking eachother. since the npc guards won't interfere, try to be a hero at your own risk!

f2) i'm permagray (blue). you're innocent (blue). you kill me. you gain "some" amount of city karma.

f3) i'm permagray (blue). you're innocent (blue). i kill you. i lose "huge" amounts of city karma, and lose "some" amounts of other guarded cities karmas.

g) i'm criminal (gray). you (blue (innocent)) attack me. you're now agressor (gray) to me. i can attack you. the guards won't interfere. but they're already attacking me becouse i was criminal (gray) in the first place. and i know i probably wouldn't mind if the game would let me attack you since i'm a lawless criminal. but that's the system.

h) i'm innocent (blue). you're any color. i try to steal from you. the results are the same as d, e, f regarding the outcome of the theft attempt.

i) when a thief succesfully steals an item in a guarded city and dies in x minutes in that city, the stolen items return to the owner automaticly. (whether or not the thief is detected.)

j) permagray (blue) lasts until death. criminal (blue) lasts for x minutes.

so it's pretty simple actually. you think you can attack someone? (blue or gray) you can. but you'll become agressor (gray) to them, regardless of their color. (reds stay red even if they're agressor to someone btw) and they can attack back. and if you're wrong about one's being permagray and attack them, well the guards whack you becouse you become criminal (gray).

this was the system in ultima online's the second age era. (i've made a few minor changes) i'm sure many people will disagree with this, since this is fallout and not ultima online. and they may be perfectly right. but this system makes a lot of sense to me. (makes more sense than guards doing absolutely nothing to thieves.)

my minor changes:
1) in uo thieves lose karma even if they're not detected. i see karma as "what people think of you." so if you're not detected, noone can say you're a bad guy. and uo doesn't have ciy karmas, it has only one karma. but i think losing and gaining city karmas is better, since it won't affect important things like perks. i'm not really sure if it should or shouldn't affect major karma by the way.

2) and players get murder counts too, for killing innocent players. there are 2 kinds of murder counts. short term and long term. if you have more than 5 short term murder counts you're red and you lose a certain percantage of skills when you die (when you resurrect actually. so it's possible to see some red ghosts waiting for short time MCs to be 0). short time murders decrease by 1 per 5 hours of online time. long term counts decrease by 1 per 40 hours of online time. you get 1 short and 1 long term murder count if you kill an innocent. since this thing has statloss which i'm fanatically against, and it might be redundant to add murder count stuff, i converted this to losing karma in all guarded cities.

3) uo has another type of grayness. it's called karma gray. when you have low karma you're gray. the game acts exactly as if you're permagray (blue), npc guards don't attack you unless you attack an innocent (blue) and other players can attack you. i think this would make a hard game even harder. since you're karma gray until, well, you gain enough karma. it might prove a bit difficult when most of the power playing types attacks you on sight.

4) uo has another type of redness. it's called karma red. when you have very low karma you're red. there's no statloss if you don't have 5 short term murder counts. npc guards whack you on sight. (not positive on this) and players can attack you. since i converted murder count system to city karma system, we don't need another karma based redness.

possible problems: (if you think of another possible problems, please let me know.)
when a person is vilified in a town, i think there's no way that he'll ever be accepted again in this system. maybe "some sort of quest to prove your good intentions." might do the trick.

now let's get to pc guard business! i think the captain of the guards should give all the recruits a standard gun, a standard armor, and a standard amount of ammo, maybe 2 stimpacks too. this should be initial and initial only. (and no "i leave now. i sign up tomorrow. gimme me stuff!" business!) then pay them some cash weekly. that's it. no special "you can attack everyone becouse a higher being lets you." power. just an initial payment in supplies, and a salary. and the satisfying feeling of doing the right thing. because doing good is its own reward.

i'd love to join no mater the system by the way. make this happen. =)

+1 on this
though what does this hold for Mercs/slaves when it happens? not sure if i missed it or not, got a headache and im at the libary atm lolz
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Re: Alternative Solution to Guards in "Guarded" Towns
« Reply #11 on: May 28, 2010, 10:35:47 am »

if you can attack someone without guards killing you, so can your pets. but uo has an "x kill" command that fo hasn't, so it won't work here. i guess they should attack your target automaticly, when you risk being an agressor (or possibly criminal) and attack someone.

or maybe a "defansive/neutral/offansive" switch in dialog options?
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